Piracy explicitly is not stealing. Theft requires denying the owner of the ability to use the thing that is stolen. Copyright infringement does not meet this bar, and is not a crime in the vast majority of cases. Commercial copyright infringement is the only offense classed as a crime, which in a nutshell is piracy for profit ie selling pirated material.
Piracy explicitly is not stealing.
Piracy is attacking ships at sea and is usually done in order to rob them.
Piracy is midnight oyster and clam harvesting without a license to break the oyster cartel, making restaurant oysters and clams more available and cheaper to customers.
It is from this grand tradition along the US West Coast that the notion of media piracy rose, and much like the Golden Age of Piracy robbing the Spanish Silver Train, piracy is associated with snatching ill-gotten gains from those who don’t deserve it, sometimes benefiting communities that do. (YMMV).
This is why you get a letter of marque to give you legitimacy. I’ve been letioning my government for one endlessly so I can attack Russian shipping in the balkans.
A letter of marque means you can find safe port at colonies of the issuing state so long as you are attacking its enemies (usually Spanish vessels during the Golden Age).
And privateering is piracy when you have the consent of a government to attack ships belonging to another government
Privateering usually meant the state’s navy issued the ship and demanded a substantial share of the prize leading to creative accounting at sea. It was a deal taken typically by naval officers who might otherwise be tempted to desert when going on the account is offering better prizes and career options. (Desertion to piracy was a big problem in the Queen’s Navee.)
Yes it is
that’s an interesting definition, and one that appeals to me especially as a fan of “harmless” theft (taking something that the owner will never notice is gone, nor be inconvenienced by the lack of)
It’s literally the legal definition. Copyright infringement has never been theft. Media companies have been trying to change the definition of theft, though.
It used to never be a crime, only a civil offense. This means the rightsholder has to sue you, rather than the state prosecute you, but also that the burden of proof is “the balance of probabilities”, ie whichever side tips the scale past 50/50 with their argument, rather than “beyond reasonable doubt” which is more like >99%. However in the last decade many countries have introduced “commercial copyright infringement” as a criminal offense. Off the top of my head, in the US I think the threshold for that is like $1,000 or something.
It’s not about it being “harmless” but the fact that you’re not taking something away from someone. If I steal your laptop and sell it, you no longer have a laptop. If I copy data, you still have your original copy.
This is also why there’s a different crime for “joyriding” instead of just stealing a car. If you steal a car, you might argue that you were just taking it for a drive, and never intended to permanently deprive the owner. In that case it’s easier to convict you for joyriding instead of theft.
Regardless of the semantics of what we call theft, or whether theft requires denying somebody access to some good, there’s an ethical issue with copying other people’s stuff without permission. If a person breaks into another persons home and makes copies of all of the documents in their home private or otherwise, they’ve at least committed a crime in the form of breaking and entering. But if a person is invited into another persons home, and then without pemission copies all of the documents in the house, that still feels like a wrong act? Like, if you invite me into your house and I start copying down your personal journal, your family photos and other stuff you have lying around, to me that sounds like I’d be doing something wrong by you?
Edit: I do want to point out here that I’m not saying piracy is inherently wrong/bad or never justified.
Corporations are not people, no matter what the Supreme Court says.
Literally nothing in my post claimed that, or even really implied that so I’m not sure what your point with this is?
Sure, but breaking and entering is a crime - just like theft. Copying someone’s documents is wrong, but it’s not a crime (not unless you commit a crime with those documents, eg fraudulently take out credit). In that case, it’s a civil offense against the victim - just like copyright infringement.
Crimes are prosecuted by the government. To be convicted of a crime you have to be proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt - in other words, it’s more than 99% likely you did it.
Civil offenses are prosecuted by the victim. The burden of proof is “the balance of probabilities”, ie it’s more than 50% likely you did it. The victim must also show actual damages.
In the US, media companies have perverted the law around copyright infringement, and they manage to get awarded statutory damages well in excess of any actual damages they incur. This is why we had all those ridiculous Napster lawsuits where people were fined hundreds of thousands for downloading a handful of songs. In the rest of the world, they could only be awarded actual damages, and the lawsuits weren’t really worth anything.
Media companies would really like copyright infringement to be theft, and they’ve lobbied hard for that. However they haven’t managed it, not yet anyway. They did manage to establish a crime of commercial copyright infringement, though, where if you pirate a significant amount of material or do it for profit you could be criminally charged.
Kinda sounds like it might be easier to get away with if it was a crime and the burden of proof was higher
“I didn’t know the router Comcast gave me came with an unprotected ‘Guest’ network enabled by default. Someone in one of the other apartments must have been using it to download torrents”
Sounds like a reasonable doubt to me, I’m sure there’d be plenty of other explanations. Plus the work to retrieve everyone’s computers to investigate who actually downloaded it would be prohibitively intensive in anything other than the most extreme cases
In that case it would be less about reasonable doubt that you did it, and more about whether an IP address proves the identity of a user. I would say it doesn’t meet the bar of 50%, however it’s a bit of a grey area that hasn’t been properly tested in court.
Sure, but breaking and entering is a crime - just like theft. Copying someone’s documents is wrong, but it’s not a crime (not unless you commit a crime with those documents, eg fraudulently take out credit). In that case, it’s a civil offense against the victim - just like copyright infringement.
My issue is mostly just to do with the moral status of piracy rather than the criminality of it. It feels like in some cases piracy should be justified and in others it shouldn’t be. The criminality of an act is a separate thing. I think I was kind of explaining things poorly with my examples. The distinction between breaking into a home vs not in my example was meant to show the act of copying somebodies personal documents could still be wrong whether or not a crime had taken place under current laws.
Crimes are prosecuted by the government. To be convicted of a crime you have to be proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt - in other words, it’s more than 99% likely you did it.
Civil offenses are prosecuted by the victim. The burden of proof is “the balance of probabilities”, ie it’s more than 50% likely you did it. The victim must also show actual damages.
This is very interesting. Establishing damages over reproduction of ones personal documents seems like it would be almost impossible to establish unless an actual crime had also taken place.
In the US, media companies have perverted the law around copyright infringement, and they manage to get awarded statutory damages well in excess of any actual damages they incur. This is why we had all those ridiculous Napster lawsuits where people were fined hundreds of thousands for downloading a handful of songs. In the rest of the world, they could only be awarded actual damages, and the lawsuits weren’t really worth anything.
Media companies would really like copyright infringement to be theft, and they’ve lobbied hard for that. However they haven’t managed it, not yet anyway. They did manage to establish a crime of commercial copyright infringement, though, where if you pirate a significant amount of material or do it for profit you could be criminally charged.
This train of thought for me seems to lead towards the most satisfying justifications I can think of for why media piracy is probably morally justifiable.
This is very interesting. Establishing damages over reproduction of ones personal documents seems like it would be almost impossible to establish unless an actual crime had also taken place.
That’s pretty much exactly right. However I think there is something to be said along the lines of “What reason would you have for copying the documents, if not to commit an offense?”
This train of thought for me seems to lead towards the most satisfying justifications I can think of for why media piracy is probably morally justifiable.
I feel like the main reason some businesses are completely against piracy is because it helps keep their prices in check. Many businesses take the piss with pricing, however when it gets bad enough people look to alternatives. If there is no alternative, if piracy wasn’t an option, then businesses would get away with ripping off people even more than they currently do.
Not really. You are not damaging their copy.
The ethical issue here has nothing to do with damaging any property at all.
It has all tp do with it. Why would something be unethical if nobody is hurt ?
Piracy is stealing- but so is capitalism so it’s fine.
No, it very much isn’t. Don’t buy into the media companies trying to rewrite the law in their favour. Copyright infringement is not theft.
It may sound the same but making a copy of something is absolutely not the same as taking something. It’s an important distinction.
You’re taking away the profit they deserve for the work and effort it took them to create the information.
They only deserve what people are willing to pay. It’s like those scammers in foreign countries who push bracelets on you and then demand money for them. If people aren’t willing to pay $600 for your software, you don’t automatically deserve that money just because you said you do.
Push bracelets on you? Who is forcing you to use their software? Please let me know, we can call the police man, that’s fucked up.
Property is theft. <Bolshevik chorus swells>
It’s literally not stealing though :)
You can steal digital goods, but to do so you have to copy it and erase the original. Otherwise its just copying.
That’s dumb. If you are supposed to pay for something and you just take it instead, you stole it. You can argue word meanings and technicallies all day, but it’s a lot easier to just be real about what we are doing here.
It is copyright violation, not stealing. Yes, it is damaging to the content creator, under current economic and law structure, but it is not stealing. If you burn a house belonging to the content creator, you do not call it stealing, just because it is damaging to them. So, why do you insist on calling it stealing here?
On a side note, one can incision a society where there is no copyright. In that society it would be completely lawful and “non-damaging” to copy things. Copyright is an artificial construct that we choose to have, but it does not mean that we can not rejected (we, as in the whole society, not individual)
One can even argue that the tools needed to avoid IP are already here: crowdfunding models, commissions, and Patreon-esque income, and likely in the near future, universal basic income - you can consider the government/taxes subsidising your ability to create art if you’re starting from zero skills/connections/reach or from scratch with a specific project. With these, why does the author even retain total IP? Their project is funded by the community, so it’d make sense that the creator and the community had a more symbiotic relationship rather than the parasitic one where the author is effectively a digital landlord and dictator with complete control over the project.
Burning down someone’s house is closer to stealing than copyright infringement, though. Afterwards, they don’t have a house anymore, but with copying they’d still have the data.
I prefer to compare it to joyriding. There are separate crimes for theft of a car and for joyriding. If you get caught taking a car, you might argue that you just wanted to go for a drive, and never intended to permanently deprive the owner. In that case, it would be hard to convict you of theft, because theft requires an intent to deprive the owner. Instead, they go for joyriding, which has a different bar.
Even then, though, joyriding is still a crime. Basic copyright infringement is not a crime, it’s a civil offense.
Joyriding depreciates the car. Plus most of the time the gas is not refilled. This is stealing.
Scratching a car also depreciates its value, would you argue that is stealing also?
I wasn’t trying to give a perfect analogy, anyway. Joyriding is a lesser form of theft, with a lower barrier to conviction. Copyright infringement also has a lower barrier to conviction, however it’s completely different to theft (and joyriding) in that it is not a crime.
Stealing requires using something for yourself. Like that gasoline was used or joyriding itself was used. Scratching a car is just vandalizing. What object you are stealing by vandalizing?
You argued that joyriding was theft because it depreciates value.
If you stole a car, you physically took something away from somebody. If you download a car, the original is still there - you’re just making an exact copy for yourself for free. Same if you swiped a candy bar at a gas station - you’re depriving that gas station the use of their property, which is to sell and make money. If you download a candy bar, nothing is taken and the gas station can still sell the original.
So let’s be crystal clear here: what’s happening is not theft, because nothing was taken and the owner is not deprived of the use of their property. Can you argue that you’re getting something for free when you shouldn’t? Yes, and that’s more in line of denying profits rather than actual theft.
We’re talking about the crime of theft and the civil offense of copyright infringement. There is no argument about word meanings or technicalities, just what the law actually says.
Media companies want copyright infringement to be considered theft, and they’ve lobbied the government to try and change the definition in their favour, but the fact is the law distinguishes between them. Copyright infringement is wrong, but it is not a crime and nor is it theft.
If you’re selling apples, and I steal and eat an apple, that’s theft. You no longer have an apple, you had a cost price for that apple and you can’t sell it anymore to make the profit you would have made. Meanwhile, if you sell a game and I copy that game, you still have your original copies. Yes, you haven’t had the money I might have paid for a copy, but it hasn’t cost you anything and you still have an infinite number of copies to sell. If I was never going to buy the game from you anyway, then you wouldn’t have even got that either way.
The US is weird though, in that the courts award statutory damages for copyright infringement. If you fileshare a few songs to a pool of users they might stack up the fines for each user you shared to up to hundreds of thousands of dollars - nevermind that they never would have made that money from selling to all of those people you shared it with. In the rest of the world, they deal with actual damages, and claims for copyright infringement were rarely if ever very large.
So you’re doing something you personally believe is unethical and your argument is that we should also follow your belief that it is unethical, while we continue to do it? If you genuinely feel it’s unethical, why are you even doing it? Just stop lol
but it’s a lot easier to just be real about what we are doing here.
That’s always the most frustrating part about these “debates.” So many people make up BS excuses they know are just excuses instead of just owning up to what they - and probably we - are doing. Just take responsibility for your actions. Don’t insult my intelligence with stuff we both know is nonsense.
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“It’s for game/movie/TV preservation!” - someone who has no archival experience or affiliation with a group that makes use of this media which also happens to only consist of things the individual enjoys.
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“The record companies are screwing artists over!” - someone who has put no effort into finding other ways to support the artist and pirates from artists who have good relationships with their labels or even self-publish.
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“I didn’t take anything from the person!” - someone who wouldn’t want their writing/art/etc. taken and shared without their permission.
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🤡
Media Piracy is copyright infringement, which is totally not stealing.
The US Supreme Court taking content out of the public domain so that it can be reserved for private use isn’t stealing either, but it causes more harm than piracy.
Talk about blowing smoke up your own ass.
It’s a lot earlier when you realize that everyone else is going to treat this world like a smash and grab regardless of what you do. These companies
includedespecially.Exactly, it is not like they are paying devs extra, they get the same whether the game is sold good or bad. CEOs keep the money.
I honestly don’t care about the legality. Plus I come from a country where we have way bigger issues to deal with than piracy.
All I care about is coming up with ways to make sure my friends watch some of the stuff I recommend to them. Best way is still going “hey, check out this cool new show. Yes it’s on saltyflix”
that is exactly where i am at as well, battling with absurdly high inflation is already hard enough i can’t pay for bajillion different streaming services or non indie games
I’m living in one of those countries. I still use a vpn, but I don’t anyone here does besides me.
But the way I look at it is, the people so make these things are also so rich out at least have higher incomes than I do by a significant amount.
Why are you asking me for money? Don’t you have enough?
Or you could just not give a flying fuck about the moral and ethical aspects and go on with your life.
Or you could understand that you are doing nothing wrong and don’t drink the corporate Kool aid
Live the unexamined life? But then who will pay attention to me?
Don’t make me tap the sidebar again…
This meme is stealing.
You wouldn’t download a meme.
You wouldn’t shitpost in the policeman’s helmet
Luckily I’m behind 7 proxies
Someone: Photographs pages of a book in a book store
OP: “Hello Police? Someone is stealing a book!”
More pirates vs pirates memes when it should be pirates vs executives
I live on a small island and the closest cinema or shop where I could buy anything is 3 hours away.
Piracy is more comfortable for me.
then why don’t you subscribe to streaming services?
Well, my friend: I don’t like to be locked out of other regions.
small island
3 hours away
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
i disagree. not that i would care anyway
I’m just here to see where everyone else is placed on the chart.
