First police investigation of Supernova festival also found Israeli forces responsible for some deaths.

  • Syldon@feddit.uk
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    1 year ago

    Those civilians would not have died if Hamas had not attacked civilian areas. The whole reason there were any casualties is because Hamas attacked.

    • Ooops@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      So if someone robs a shop, the police arrives and starts shooting killing several bystanders means the robber is now charged with murder and the police involvement isn’t scrutinized.

      Is that really the argument you are trying to make here?

      • matthewmercury@reddthat.com
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        1 year ago

        That is the argument they are making, yes. What you described is pretty much “felony murder doctrine,” blaming any death that occurs during the commission of a crime on the perpetrators. Felony murder charges have been used very effectively to justify police brutality and excessive force. If a cop kneels on your neck until you die but you were committing a crime, you murdered yourself, they say.

      • Kepabar@startrek.website
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        1 year ago

        … That is generally how it works where I live, yes.

        Police causalities caused by actions intended to stop a felony are charged to the felon and they are held responsible.

        Not that I fully agree with the unscrutinized part but your analogy isn’t the best.

      • Syldon@feddit.uk
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        1 year ago

        No I am saying Hamas committed an atrocity. There is no escaping that. Throwing in spurious figures regarding Israeli competence does not alleviate that.

        There are many wrong in this. It is hard to find any rights at all from any side. Ignoring all the wrongs that have been committed by both sides will not solve the issue. Parties need to recognise that shit is being, and has been done. It should not be buried with BS in a cheap effort to dilute responsibility.

        • Omega@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Basically both of you think the other one is trying to shift blame, when in actuality you’re trying to make sure both are blamed.

          Sums up a lot of arguments over this war.

            • Ooops@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              Those civilians would not have died if Hamas had not attacked civilian areas.

              And yet, by your very own bullshit IDF soldiers shooting civilians are indeed innocent because it’s all Hama’s fault.

              “there is not innocent party in this conflict” is not some solve-all catchphrase to get rid of criticism. It needs to actually be applied and those soldiers need to scrutinized for what happened there.

              • Syldon@feddit.uk
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                1 year ago

                IDF should be held to account also. I never once made excuses for the crimes of others. You want a cheap get out to deflect blame. I don’t accept that.

                • Ooops@kbin.social
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                  1 year ago

                  No, I want Isreal’s government and military to account for the things they did and not get a free pass because “BuT hAMaS”.

                  You however have fully eaten up the propaganda of how everyone questioning Israel is somehow magically supporting Hamas and trying to deflect from their terrorist acts. And only when you realize that your bullshit claims like

                  The whole reason there were any casualties is because Hamas attacked

                  They [Hamas] created that fog of war though.

                  The rest is just propaganda until you can produce data to back it up. Just stating that Israel committed blue on blue attacks is not really good enough.

                  don’t fly, you pay lip service to allegedly being critical of both sides, only to then instantly continuing to blame Hamas for Israel killing people.

                  • Syldon@feddit.uk
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                    1 year ago

                    So you want Israel to investigate errors of judgement that were made under duress. Without a doubt where errors are made then countries need to learn from them. Just remember those errors were caused by the actions of Hamas.

                    And, where did I say Israel supported Hamas? It is not a claim I have ever made. You are misquoting yet again to twist your narrative.

            • twisted28@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              The Palestinian children murdered in hospitals and schools by Israelis bombs were innocent

              • Syldon@feddit.uk
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                1 year ago

                This very much depends if Israel can prove Hamas were using it as a base. I have seen the videos with the tunnels they have released. That still does not prove it is a base though. Hamas will state they wanted quicker access to medical supplies. Israel needs to prove fighting took place from there.

                • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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                  1 year ago

                  Israel has been caught tampering with/fabricating evidence more than once (remember the calendar)? If they had real evidence they’d have published it already.

                  • Syldon@feddit.uk
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                    1 year ago

                    Do you expect anything else? This is why it needs an independent review. Israel’s say so alone is not enough.

        • Ooops@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          And nobody said that Hamas terror acts were not an atrocity. What was instead criticised is the fact that IDF soldiers also taking their part in killing civilians there is completely and pointedly ignored.

          Which you then justify with some bullshit of how it would not have happened without the Hama’s attack in the first place.

          So my point stands: If you think that soldiers indiscriminately shooting civilians is to blame solely on Hamas, then police shooting civilians while trying to stop a robbing is to be blamed solely on the robber, too.

            • Ooops@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              There are reports that IDF members were there, too. Shooting back amid civilians. It was probably chaotic and nobody actually knows who was shot by whom, because Israel is refusing to even investigate. In fact they also refuse to make public how many IDF members were there and how many died or how many Hamas members died. They only categorically tell us a total number, implying all dead were peaceful civilians killed by Hamas.

              • intensely_human@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                (I’m sorry if this appears multiple times. My lemmy client is giving me errors as I try to save this comment)

                Active IDF members, or just citizens armed and trained from their days as active IDF?

                You say they were shooting back from amid civilians. That’s not them participating in the massacre at all. That’s them defending the civilians. The best way to suppress gunfire coming into a group of people is to send gunfire back at the source.

                Shooting a gun requires aiming, aiming requires looking, and looking requires exposing your head. This is why you can suppress gunfire by firing in its direction. The person has to choose between continuing to fire at you, and protecting their own head.

                I say head because that’s basically what you need to expose in order to fire, if the rest of you is in cover. If the attackers aren’t in cover then firing back at them is even more effective because unless they stop firing and get to cover their entire body is in danger.

                So firing back is totally legit behavior if that’s all they did.

                Do you have any reports of IDF firing on other festival attendees?

          • Syldon@feddit.uk
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            1 year ago

            I doubt very much that it is being ignored by the families of those involved. I highly doubt that Israel will be honest regarding the facts. But again there is a huge difference between blue on blue events and deliberate murders. Or are you suggesting Israel killed civilians deliberately also?

    • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      And justifies the IDF bombing their own citizens because…?

      Hamas can’t be blamed for the fact that they attacked. Fighting an occupier is allowed by international law, and if that wasn’t enough Israel’s blockade of Gaza is an act of war. This means that starting 1967, and even more so since 2005, any and all military action within the bounds of international law is fair game. They can be blamed for their conduct during the attack. We know civilians were killed by Hamas, and they absolutely should be condemned for that. However, the specifics, including how many of the casualties were civilians vs IDF, how many were killed by the Hamas and how many were killed by the IDF, how many were caught up in the crossfire, those are still in fog of war territory.

      • Syldon@feddit.uk
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        1 year ago

        Fighting an occupier is allowed by international law,

        Slaughtering civilians is not acceptable under international law. The rest is just propaganda until you can produce data to back it up. Just stating that Israel committed blue on blue attacks is not really good enough. Even then the scale of the attacks by Hamas will have sent Israeli defence systems into turmoil. Getting confused and hitting a wrong target is pathetic, it is not a criminal offence if it is done in a national defence situation.

        • stopthatgirl7@kbin.socialOP
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          1 year ago

          Slaughtering civilians is not acceptable under international law.

          Please tell that to Israel, since they’re doing an awful lot of that.

          • S_204@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Unfortunately you’re not a civilian if you’re dressed like one but holding an RPG.

            I’m sure you’ve seen the video of the ‘medic’, who stripped the rifle from the wounded man instead of helping him and handed it to another ‘civilian’ who was firing on something, presumably IDF forces.

            Just like the hospital losing protection once Hamas sets up in it, we’re seeing the weaponization of international laws and the complete disregard for the rules of war here and it’s fucking tragic.

            • avater@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Sadly this is how an this war is fought. The Hamas is no regular army, they are terrorists who can hide among civilians, but this also gives no justification for clear attacks on civilians. Israel is in a very delicate and complicated situation…

          • Syldon@feddit.uk
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            1 year ago

            yes I agree, and I sincerely there is an account after this.

        • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          I’m not saying they’re allowed to slaughter civilians. I’m saying while we do know civilians were murdered by Hamas, and we absolutely should condemn that, we don’t know if civilians were wholesale slaughtered or not (alternatively, whether Hamas soldiers had a policy of killing unarmed civilians or not). When you include the fact that the Israeli casualties include IDF personnel and civilians the IDF killed (not accidentally, see this for more details), we need to know at least the approximate number of those people before we can assign blame. This is why I said we’re in fog of war territory.

          “Hamas attacked so all casualties are their responsibility” doesn’t check out, which is why we need to wait for the details (which still haven’t come out).

          • Syldon@feddit.uk
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            1 year ago

            They created that fog of war though. Israelis would not have made any blue on blue attacks without the attack happening. We could argue all day if Hamas is directly or indirectly to blame for some of the killings, but none of them would have happened at all without the attack. It is not as if the Israelis recognised Hamas was attacking and they used it as an opportunity to kill a few more of their own is it?

            • twisted28@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Now since Bibi was paying Hamas, Bibi basically paid for this attack on his own civilians to justify retaliation and you’re defending it.

              • Syldon@feddit.uk
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                1 year ago

                I have heard the stories. Governments are known for funding backfiring throughout history, but I don’t know enough about it to give an opinion.

      • Syldon@feddit.uk
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        1 year ago

        That is not the same as stating what Hamas has done is not really as bad as it was because X y or Z.

        Israel has abused the situation without a doubt. Israel has ran apartheid policies for many years. Israel has been killing Palestinians and evicting them over a very long period. None of this excuses what Hamas did. I do not have a favourable opinion of either group tbf.

      • Syldon@feddit.uk
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        1 year ago

        It is certainly part of the issue. Other factors you cannot ignore are the influence of Iran and Russia with the intent of adding financial pressure on the US. As well as the plan to destabilise the push Netanyahu from within Israel is under for his extreme views. This is why I say you cannot push all the blame on the Palestinians. Another side is that Hamas and Hezbollah have a very public agenda to murder all Jews in Israel. This leaves Israel with an open door too defend itself. And where there is war there is abuse.

        • Thief_of_Crows@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          Israel literally is trying to murder all Gazans, so whatever Hamas may or may not desire, it’s not actually relevant. Reality is the thing that counts.

          • Syldon@feddit.uk
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            1 year ago

            Not strictly true when the far right in Israel are using the Rhetoric from Hamas and Hezbollah to give credit to their reasoning. What better reason to be a nasty bastard towards a group than knowing they also want to kill you. You cannot try to push that these groups are not your enemy. They even use this as an excuse to intimidate and thieve from the West Bank, who have a government that wants to resolve the problems and push Israel out of its land.