I have this really wierd take where I judge things based on the other things in their group. A sort of realtive judgement based on my experience of reality. As opposed to what I feel it should be in an ideal state in my head. I would like to get to that ideal state but it has not come to be yet. Once again I will say that biden was the best president of my lifetime. I get a lot of flak from that but so far no one has taken a president from the last 50 years as an example of how much better they were than him or gave me a run down rank putting him at the bottom below reagan and bush and trump and such.
The problem with comparing Presidents is that you have to consider the times they were in power, and what did get done vs. what could have been done. Sorting Democrats above Republicans is the easy part, but the caveat is that they could have been so much better, but settled for better than Republicans. And of course parties over time change as well. Neither party resembles the past version in many ways.
I’m surprised you put Biden above Obama or Carter though. What major achievement did he do that gives him top level?
actually its because as you say considering the times. obama had two terms and in the first term he wasted a lot of time trying to work with republicans. as such the aca was the only thing to come out of it and he had a very nice initial setup congression wise. Biden had a very adversarial situation and managed to do quite a bit of useful thing. beyond the omundsman bill was the no surprise billing and not allowing college loan debt to rise above principle, have payback relative to means and discharged after 20 years of payments (the income driven plan). This is keep in mind the compromise action after knocking down many other more comprehensive discharging and despite a complete lack of appreciation on this platform for it from many folks. he was like a bulldog coming back and getting at least something done for all of his stuff. Getting more people overtime when miscategorized as exempt. I still give him credit for the no compete even though the courts blocked it. It at least as made it an issue. Don’t get me wrong I like obama like as far as stats. well spoken, well educated, just downright cool and a leader you could be proud to have. One that makes other countries jealous. Again though he sorta wasted the first term. I do keep in mind that biden did better because of his experience under obama though so its a bit unfair but its results that matter. Similarly carter did not get a lot in his term and unfortunately it was because he was to good for the job really.
A fair answer. Most interesting is the commonality they all share that impedes further progress. The other party. I can’t blame Obama for limited success, when the opposition adopts a “Vote No” mentality because of racism, and he hit resistance within his own party that made the wins lackluster (ACA and Lieberman).
Obama also had a 2 month window where he could get things done and that’s when he got the ACA passed. That was the only 2 month window that Democrats had the ability to move legislation through Congress and the Senate without obstruction since 2009 when Obama came in.
Anything that has to be written in a bill has to pass through both branches, so if it requires a bill, it really can’t be blamed on a president because they don’t even exist in that branch. That’s on the U.S. population for voting on a majority Dems/Pubs in the house/Senate. Biden served 0 days as president with a majority in those that could pass legislation… And people complain he got nothing done, when really somehow… He still got a decent amount of legislation through while being roadblocked every day for 4 years.
Edit: That will get me called a centrist or some shit… But really those people are just foolishly ignoring the truth of how our government is set up.
clinton had some similar stuff. kennedy was resistant to healthcare because of trump like idea that it was like his or his families thing to accomplish.
Once again I will say that biden was the best president of my lifetime.
And lots of people say trump was/is…
That’s because it’s an opiy, and everyone is entitled to their own, no matter how few agree with them.
but so far no one has taken a president from the last 50 years as an example of how much better they were than him or gave me a run down rank putting him at the bottom below reagan and bush and trump and such.
He’s below Obama, and Bill…
Those are the only two Dem presidents to compare him too.
While ignoring that Biden was just a figurehead for the neo liberal wing that stopped Obama from doing more…
That’s the important distinction, Obama wasn’t perfect but tried to do more and failed.
Biden drug his feet and reluctantly did some small things, but the people who decided it was Biden’s turn and gave him the “victory fund” when Hillary was done with it have the pull they could have gotten a lot done.
They just didn’t want to
And I know all this goes over people’s heads, and they’re likely just going to get upset because Biden has the right letter by his name.
But how can you say Biden was better than Obama considering that?
man you and I have 100% opposite views on obama and biden. I loved obama but felt he got little done in his first term (for biden im comparing like with like so every presidents first term) do to trying to work with republicans to much and I see biden as having gotten up every time something he did was smacked down and got some sort of progress going. He seemed to understand that while the whole loaf would be great, better half than none. Clinton had a lot of things I did not like. drug benefit that was way to much corpo giveaway. and then also I feel he got, at least initially, an easy situation for a democratic president. bush sr lost because he was still classically conservative enough to raise taxes and the economy bill inherited was significantly better than obama or biden. I feel more than any other democrat he coasted and could have fought for much better gains.
Because the neoliberal wing sabotaged the progressive agenda…
The same ones that put Biden as VP, the same ones who handed Biden the primary.
What Obama got done, he got done in spite of people like Biden, but he did all he could.
What Biden got done, was what his donors figured would be just enough progress to keep the poors from rioting, but him and the other neoliberals are the reason we didn’t get the whole progressive party platform voters want…
Like, have you ever heard the phrase “Stockholm Syndrome” before?
Because you’re giving the people holding our heads underwater credit for letting us up when we drown then plunging us back under all over again.
Completely ignoring they’re the ones that keep drowning us.
this is just patently rediculous. biden did not hold obama back or hold that much sway. It only make obama seem like a week president like bush jr being lorded over by chenney or trump being lorded over by musk. obama was better than that.
Yeah I guess I missread your last comment as it seemed to be about biden rather than congress. I think though you are attributing more the way democratic representatives are compared to republicans. Democrats are a centerist party and have always ruled with consensus and don’t get behind a leader like the republicans do. I don’t think they resisted obamas policies any more than they did clintons or carters. Now this is something where biden had a bit of an advantage in that republicans have made it so us vs them that dems line up a bit better than before. Curiously this seems to be one of the things screwing up the republicans as their party is more split now and they never really were good with consensus.
Since the neoliberal takeover in the 90s piggybacked on Bills inherit charisma and the dotcom boom…
Since then we’ve had 12 years of Dem presidents, 8 of those were a young charismatic reminiscent of the actual popular things about Bill, and then 4 years of his VP, because that was the only option next to trump.
The “centrist” experiment doesn’t fucking work.
We can’t keep pretending it does, the country isn’t going to survive it.
Before Bill, there was Jimmy C, also so progressive that the moderate wing sabotaged him. Before that FDR who wanted universal healthcare and was wildly popular.
He also was opposed by the moderate wing of the Dem party. The issue has just been exacerbated since Hillary’s Victory fund nonsense, and while I’d like to assume everyone is aware by now:
For longer than either of us have been alive, progressives dominate general elections when they can get past their own party. When they can’t (except for rare exceptions) the Republican wins.
You’re stuck on “as long as they’re better than a Republican” we’re not talking about if that’s correct.
I’m talking about how we can’t reliable convince voters of that, so as long as we keep doing it, republican presidents keep happening.
We can stop that, by finally picking voters over donors. And selecting the most popular candidate for the general, rather than the one who gets the most donations from billionaires and corporations
It was never an experiment. They have followed the overton window and are what I would call even slightly right of center as far as their governing but a lot of that has been american voters really. Go back to the seventies and you have a left of center but still center party with the republicans being right of center but still center enough to be called center. green is far left but democrats have never really been one. I do blame the superdelegates and I believe without them bernie would have won which would have changed things quite a bit. Not that the delegates specifically effected it with the votes but more in that it creates a larger inner circle that has an outsized effects on the campaigns. As long as republicans keep winning elections I don’t see how the democrats could ever get away from just being better. They have to take into account that republicans are doing things that a fair amount of americans want again and again. Then to they have a lot of cleanup to keep a stable society going.
I have this really wierd take where I judge things based on the other things in their group. A sort of realtive judgement based on my experience of reality. As opposed to what I feel it should be in an ideal state in my head. I would like to get to that ideal state but it has not come to be yet. Once again I will say that biden was the best president of my lifetime. I get a lot of flak from that but so far no one has taken a president from the last 50 years as an example of how much better they were than him or gave me a run down rank putting him at the bottom below reagan and bush and trump and such.
The problem with comparing Presidents is that you have to consider the times they were in power, and what did get done vs. what could have been done. Sorting Democrats above Republicans is the easy part, but the caveat is that they could have been so much better, but settled for better than Republicans. And of course parties over time change as well. Neither party resembles the past version in many ways.
I’m surprised you put Biden above Obama or Carter though. What major achievement did he do that gives him top level?
actually its because as you say considering the times. obama had two terms and in the first term he wasted a lot of time trying to work with republicans. as such the aca was the only thing to come out of it and he had a very nice initial setup congression wise. Biden had a very adversarial situation and managed to do quite a bit of useful thing. beyond the omundsman bill was the no surprise billing and not allowing college loan debt to rise above principle, have payback relative to means and discharged after 20 years of payments (the income driven plan). This is keep in mind the compromise action after knocking down many other more comprehensive discharging and despite a complete lack of appreciation on this platform for it from many folks. he was like a bulldog coming back and getting at least something done for all of his stuff. Getting more people overtime when miscategorized as exempt. I still give him credit for the no compete even though the courts blocked it. It at least as made it an issue. Don’t get me wrong I like obama like as far as stats. well spoken, well educated, just downright cool and a leader you could be proud to have. One that makes other countries jealous. Again though he sorta wasted the first term. I do keep in mind that biden did better because of his experience under obama though so its a bit unfair but its results that matter. Similarly carter did not get a lot in his term and unfortunately it was because he was to good for the job really.
A fair answer. Most interesting is the commonality they all share that impedes further progress. The other party. I can’t blame Obama for limited success, when the opposition adopts a “Vote No” mentality because of racism, and he hit resistance within his own party that made the wins lackluster (ACA and Lieberman).
Obama also had a 2 month window where he could get things done and that’s when he got the ACA passed. That was the only 2 month window that Democrats had the ability to move legislation through Congress and the Senate without obstruction since 2009 when Obama came in.
Anything that has to be written in a bill has to pass through both branches, so if it requires a bill, it really can’t be blamed on a president because they don’t even exist in that branch. That’s on the U.S. population for voting on a majority Dems/Pubs in the house/Senate. Biden served 0 days as president with a majority in those that could pass legislation… And people complain he got nothing done, when really somehow… He still got a decent amount of legislation through while being roadblocked every day for 4 years.
Edit: That will get me called a centrist or some shit… But really those people are just foolishly ignoring the truth of how our government is set up.
clinton had some similar stuff. kennedy was resistant to healthcare because of trump like idea that it was like his or his families thing to accomplish.
And lots of people say trump was/is…
That’s because it’s an opiy, and everyone is entitled to their own, no matter how few agree with them.
He’s below Obama, and Bill…
Those are the only two Dem presidents to compare him too.
While ignoring that Biden was just a figurehead for the neo liberal wing that stopped Obama from doing more…
That’s the important distinction, Obama wasn’t perfect but tried to do more and failed.
Biden drug his feet and reluctantly did some small things, but the people who decided it was Biden’s turn and gave him the “victory fund” when Hillary was done with it have the pull they could have gotten a lot done.
They just didn’t want to
And I know all this goes over people’s heads, and they’re likely just going to get upset because Biden has the right letter by his name.
But how can you say Biden was better than Obama considering that?
man you and I have 100% opposite views on obama and biden. I loved obama but felt he got little done in his first term (for biden im comparing like with like so every presidents first term) do to trying to work with republicans to much and I see biden as having gotten up every time something he did was smacked down and got some sort of progress going. He seemed to understand that while the whole loaf would be great, better half than none. Clinton had a lot of things I did not like. drug benefit that was way to much corpo giveaway. and then also I feel he got, at least initially, an easy situation for a democratic president. bush sr lost because he was still classically conservative enough to raise taxes and the economy bill inherited was significantly better than obama or biden. I feel more than any other democrat he coasted and could have fought for much better gains.
Because the neoliberal wing sabotaged the progressive agenda…
The same ones that put Biden as VP, the same ones who handed Biden the primary.
What Obama got done, he got done in spite of people like Biden, but he did all he could.
What Biden got done, was what his donors figured would be just enough progress to keep the poors from rioting, but him and the other neoliberals are the reason we didn’t get the whole progressive party platform voters want…
Like, have you ever heard the phrase “Stockholm Syndrome” before?
Because you’re giving the people holding our heads underwater credit for letting us up when we drown then plunging us back under all over again.
Completely ignoring they’re the ones that keep drowning us.
this is just patently rediculous. biden did not hold obama back or hold that much sway. It only make obama seem like a week president like bush jr being lorded over by chenney or trump being lorded over by musk. obama was better than that.
What?
There was a typo I fixed, but I don’t think that changes anything:
I said the people running the DNC who put Biden as VP were the ones that sabotaged Biden.
By 2008 Biden was already considered an empty suit, and was there to calm boomers down about voting for a Black guy.
I never implied Biden was some Machiavellian political genius calling the shots from the shadows.
Like, it seems like you believe that’s what I was talking about and not Dem Senators and House Reprentatives refusing to back his popular policy…
It’s like you’re having a conversation with someone else…
Yeah I guess I missread your last comment as it seemed to be about biden rather than congress. I think though you are attributing more the way democratic representatives are compared to republicans. Democrats are a centerist party and have always ruled with consensus and don’t get behind a leader like the republicans do. I don’t think they resisted obamas policies any more than they did clintons or carters. Now this is something where biden had a bit of an advantage in that republicans have made it so us vs them that dems line up a bit better than before. Curiously this seems to be one of the things screwing up the republicans as their party is more split now and they never really were good with consensus.
Since the neoliberal takeover in the 90s piggybacked on Bills inherit charisma and the dotcom boom…
Since then we’ve had 12 years of Dem presidents, 8 of those were a young charismatic reminiscent of the actual popular things about Bill, and then 4 years of his VP, because that was the only option next to trump.
The “centrist” experiment doesn’t fucking work.
We can’t keep pretending it does, the country isn’t going to survive it.
Before Bill, there was Jimmy C, also so progressive that the moderate wing sabotaged him. Before that FDR who wanted universal healthcare and was wildly popular.
He also was opposed by the moderate wing of the Dem party. The issue has just been exacerbated since Hillary’s Victory fund nonsense, and while I’d like to assume everyone is aware by now:
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/02/clinton-brazile-hacks-2016-215774/
For longer than either of us have been alive, progressives dominate general elections when they can get past their own party. When they can’t (except for rare exceptions) the Republican wins.
You’re stuck on “as long as they’re better than a Republican” we’re not talking about if that’s correct.
I’m talking about how we can’t reliable convince voters of that, so as long as we keep doing it, republican presidents keep happening.
We can stop that, by finally picking voters over donors. And selecting the most popular candidate for the general, rather than the one who gets the most donations from billionaires and corporations
It was never an experiment. They have followed the overton window and are what I would call even slightly right of center as far as their governing but a lot of that has been american voters really. Go back to the seventies and you have a left of center but still center party with the republicans being right of center but still center enough to be called center. green is far left but democrats have never really been one. I do blame the superdelegates and I believe without them bernie would have won which would have changed things quite a bit. Not that the delegates specifically effected it with the votes but more in that it creates a larger inner circle that has an outsized effects on the campaigns. As long as republicans keep winning elections I don’t see how the democrats could ever get away from just being better. They have to take into account that republicans are doing things that a fair amount of americans want again and again. Then to they have a lot of cleanup to keep a stable society going.