This is precisely why it is arbitrary. The post makes 0 connection between what makes us capitalist and the problems of food insecurity. Invoking capitalist greed as the catch all problem maker completely sets up a nebulous boogeyman from the perspective of everyone who already hates capitalism. No cause and effect, no potential solutions, no reason to compromise, just an enemy.
If you wish for food insecurity to be solved, then you absolutely should be asking questions.
Profit motive has been cited multiple times when it comes to food waste in this thread. More specifically, people are saying farmers dump milk to keep the prices high and thus retain more profit. Doesn’t it seem like we’re missing something here? If they sell the milk, it may be priced lower, but it’s product that’s already been produced. Whatever cost of production has already been spent. Selling it at a reduced profit is still profit, so what’s missing here? What part of the equation are you ignoring?
What is the rule that is given as determining a commodity price realized at the point of sale?
Would a situation ever arise such that the price realized would not exceed the production costs, yet such a sale would also occur as following from the profit motive?
I think what you’re asking me, is whether farmers would be willing to sell something at a loss? The answer is yes, because not selling it is a bigger loss. It’s actually incredibly common for farmers to sell certain product at a loss just to maintain cash flow and make sure they are able to put their more valuable products to market
This works a lot better if you just make your point. Are you referring to supply and demand? Or maybe you’re referring to the subjective theory of value, or the labor theory of value? Seriously, you’re being really awkwardly coy, and I don’t know what you’re getting at. It feels like you’re trying to lead me to a gotcha but I gotta say it works way better on me to just be straight forward
Your earlier comment insinuated that any sale price for a product would be agreeable, as long as it exceeds the production cost but not the price affordable to all consumers who have need of the product.
You now appear to concede that neither constraint has any actual bearing on price realized at the point of sale, but rather the value is resolved entirely by the principle of supply and demand.
As such, I am not understanding as broadly coherent your initial round of questions.
Perhaps, rather, you have answered your own question, about the piece absent from your own analysis.
Whatever cost of production has already been spent. Selling it at a reduced profit is still profit, so what’s missing here?
At any rate, my position remains, that I am not understanding as broadly coherent your initial round of questions.
If you wish to attempt another presentation of your concerns or questions, perhaps taking into consideration the more recent discussion, I will try to address it.
Sure, it’s very straight forward. People are saying that farmer’s are dumping cow’s milk to reduce supply, and therefor retain high prices. But, if the farmers (cows) have already produced their milk, dumping it simply makes them no money instead of less money than expected. Unless there’s something else to consider here, there’s no reason, including greed, for the farmer to dump the milk. If someone was greedy, would they not try and sell every last bit of milk they could?
What I’m alluding to, is that these farmers did not choose to dump their milk. It does not make sense for farmers to dump their milk, because they make more money if they sell more milk. They cannot store milk and wait for the market price to go up, because it spoils. When a farmer has milk to sell, they want to sell all of it, because being able to sell all of it means they make more money, always, regardless of market price. There may even be cases where dumping it will lose them the chance to net profit. Considering the negative impact dumping milk has on the farmer, it straight up can’t be greed motivating the farmer to do it. In fact, we know what causes farmers to do it, because these cases have been thoroughly reported on, and the reason behind it frankly isn’t really up for dispute.
The milk dumping issue went viral because of an Ontario farmer who exposed the issue on Tik Tok. He shared the same sentiment, that he would’ve loved to sell all that milk, but he was unable to sell it because he had exceeded his quota given by the Ontario Dairy commission. Dairy farmers in Ontario are only allowed to sell through that source, and that source’s expected demand fell through in covid, so they just stopped all sales altogether. This is not the only time it happened either, there are several reported cases of farmers being told outright by the government to dump their products.
It’s really not something that’s up for debate, capitalism did not cause this, over regulation by the Canadian government did.
This is precisely why it is arbitrary. The post makes 0 connection between what makes us capitalist and the problems of food insecurity. Invoking capitalist greed as the catch all problem maker completely sets up a nebulous boogeyman from the perspective of everyone who already hates capitalism. No cause and effect, no potential solutions, no reason to compromise, just an enemy.
If you wish for food insecurity to be solved, then you absolutely should be asking questions.
Profit motive has been cited multiple times when it comes to food waste in this thread. More specifically, people are saying farmers dump milk to keep the prices high and thus retain more profit. Doesn’t it seem like we’re missing something here? If they sell the milk, it may be priced lower, but it’s product that’s already been produced. Whatever cost of production has already been spent. Selling it at a reduced profit is still profit, so what’s missing here? What part of the equation are you ignoring?
What is the rule that is given as determining a commodity price realized at the point of sale?
Would a situation ever arise such that the price realized would not exceed the production costs, yet such a sale would also occur as following from the profit motive?
I think what you’re asking me, is whether farmers would be willing to sell something at a loss? The answer is yes, because not selling it is a bigger loss. It’s actually incredibly common for farmers to sell certain product at a loss just to maintain cash flow and make sure they are able to put their more valuable products to market
Sure. Once a product has been created, the cost of production is not a determinant of whether or when to sell, or price realized at sale.
What is the name of the rule or principle that an economist would identity as the one resolving a sale price on a commodity markets?
This works a lot better if you just make your point. Are you referring to supply and demand? Or maybe you’re referring to the subjective theory of value, or the labor theory of value? Seriously, you’re being really awkwardly coy, and I don’t know what you’re getting at. It feels like you’re trying to lead me to a gotcha but I gotta say it works way better on me to just be straight forward
Your earlier comment insinuated that any sale price for a product would be agreeable, as long as it exceeds the production cost but not the price affordable to all consumers who have need of the product.
You now appear to concede that neither constraint has any actual bearing on price realized at the point of sale, but rather the value is resolved entirely by the principle of supply and demand.
As such, I am not understanding as broadly coherent your initial round of questions.
Perhaps, rather, you have answered your own question, about the piece absent from your own analysis.
No, I did not insinuate this.
You wrote…
At any rate, my position remains, that I am not understanding as broadly coherent your initial round of questions.
If you wish to attempt another presentation of your concerns or questions, perhaps taking into consideration the more recent discussion, I will try to address it.
Sure, it’s very straight forward. People are saying that farmer’s are dumping cow’s milk to reduce supply, and therefor retain high prices. But, if the farmers (cows) have already produced their milk, dumping it simply makes them no money instead of less money than expected. Unless there’s something else to consider here, there’s no reason, including greed, for the farmer to dump the milk. If someone was greedy, would they not try and sell every last bit of milk they could?
What I’m alluding to, is that these farmers did not choose to dump their milk. It does not make sense for farmers to dump their milk, because they make more money if they sell more milk. They cannot store milk and wait for the market price to go up, because it spoils. When a farmer has milk to sell, they want to sell all of it, because being able to sell all of it means they make more money, always, regardless of market price. There may even be cases where dumping it will lose them the chance to net profit. Considering the negative impact dumping milk has on the farmer, it straight up can’t be greed motivating the farmer to do it. In fact, we know what causes farmers to do it, because these cases have been thoroughly reported on, and the reason behind it frankly isn’t really up for dispute.
The milk dumping issue went viral because of an Ontario farmer who exposed the issue on Tik Tok. He shared the same sentiment, that he would’ve loved to sell all that milk, but he was unable to sell it because he had exceeded his quota given by the Ontario Dairy commission. Dairy farmers in Ontario are only allowed to sell through that source, and that source’s expected demand fell through in covid, so they just stopped all sales altogether. This is not the only time it happened either, there are several reported cases of farmers being told outright by the government to dump their products.
It’s really not something that’s up for debate, capitalism did not cause this, over regulation by the Canadian government did.
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/02/02/dairy-farmer-dumping-excess-milk/ https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52192190