- cross-posted to:
- exchristian@lemmy.one
- cross-posted to:
- exchristian@lemmy.one
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Front page news story today about an 8 year old boy with a brain tumour suffering from partial paralysis and seizures.
Thanks God.
You’re welcome buddy.
I learned a long time ago that any god that does exist doesn’t care about our suffering, doesn’t love us, and is at best indifferent to us.
The Christian, all loving, all powerful, all knowing God is illogical.
You could have a God that is all loving and all knowing, but powerless to help us.
You could have a God that is all knowing and all powerful, but doesn’t love us enough to help us.
You could have a God that is all powerful and all loving, but ignorant of our suffering.
But more likely than that, there is no God at all.
Apologetics has an answer for all of those questions. Those answers are mostly informal fallacies, but you’re not going to convince someone who is already convinced there is a God and just needs some talking points.
If there is a god, i like the theory of the clockmaker god. He made this meticulous clockwork world/universe but now has to be content with just observing.
The theory is much older than computers. But nowadays it is easier explained with a simulation. As long as the simulation has a consistent internal logic, it is impossible to notice that we are in one (we are on the inside). But if external forces start to mess with it, the ppl inside could notice or there will be chain reactions hard to foresee.
@ToxicWaste @13esq this is in line with the “Deist” version of God. the Deism position is the belief that there is a God or Gods, but not of religious man-made lore.
while a deist can have different ideas of how that God or Gods behave, the most common deist belief is of a God who set the universe in motion, but does not influence it further than that.
i do agree that it’s a nicer idea of God where worship is not forced, arbitrary rules aren’t established, etc.
Voltaite was a well known deist
Still makes you ask the question for why such a God would create a simulation with so much pain and suffering.
Why do we humans create simulations? Maybe it is a science experiment, a prediction machine or just because we can…
@13esq @ToxicWaste well ya see, God likes to do a little bit of trolling.
God is a 4chan user
And what would be the point of worshipping it?
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Suffering: the state of undergoing pain, stress or hardship
Seem like quite sensible things to avoid if you can.
Do you have a counter point?
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That’s only if you can do something about it and in some cases were people can do something about it but convince themselves they cannot.
The only personal growth you can get from suffering you can do nothing about is in coping strategies - i.e. change yourself so that the suffering can be more easilly endured - and that’s for people whose coping strategy doesn’t lead them into becoming defeatist, fatalist or subservient (depening on the source and kind of suffering).
(Just look at people in abusive relationships who are unable to leave the abusive partner for great examples of how suffering leads some people to change in a direction which is the exact opposite of grow and develop)
I think it would be more correct to say that “challenge” allows us to grow and develop, which does include those forms of suffering were one can do something about it but that’s not easy to do (hence challenging)
Tell that to the African child dying of dysentery on a bank of a severely polluted river whilst a parasitic worm bores in to their eye ball.
Apologists like you make me sick.
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A parasitic worm boring through your body is necessary for the life of the parasitic worm, but God could have made a universe with no parasites if he wanted.
Stress and hardship can have many causes and many of them have no meaning at all. Being born in to a third world country with extreme poverty for example.
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Sure, and it wouldn’t be the same reality we live in
Yes, it would be a better one
Mostly an effect of how our reality works, there is no “meaning” necessary for cause and effect
God being loving yet allowing suffering doesn’t make it a paradox such that it disproves God
I’m not actually trying to disprove god here. But I do believe that if a god has subjected us to such suffering that can be shown in our world and in our histories, then not only is he underserving of our praise, but quite the opposite. There is plenty of evidence that shows that not only is god unloving but that they’re malevolent.
My 3rd world country has less suicides than your first world country (assuming you are USA)
Suffering is relative, and no matter how much of “bad” you remove from the world, suffering will persist
I’m not sure what your point is here.
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Created universe. Created flawed people. Created ETERNAL DAMNATION AND SUFFERING for the flawed people that they created.
Nice God.
Sorry, He is too busy helping athletes win in sports to care about some tiny little conflict.
Yea little do people realize we were created to play basketball he only created us because he had this really sick idea for a game but he needed subjects to evolve so he can watch them play that game he thought of
That’s another god
You mean Sportacus?
I was thinking about Zeus, but this one works too
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Wasn’t New Testament (Jesus) the one that changed view to that God is all loving?
Same for Christians lol.
They go to haven, so what’s the big deal?
The Jews, the Muslims or all dogs?
That movie made an atheist when I was little. The nuns at my school said that dogs don’t go to heaven because they don’t have souls, and I thought that was bullshit.
Depends on region
point to the region on the doll sir
Available options include:
- Believing in an evil god.
- Not believing in anything beyond physical reality.
- Not paying attention to reality and believing whatever delusion you feel like.
Most people choose option 3.
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Sounds like you’re saying that children dying is the good ending…? And, that Hitler being forced to hide in a bunker and physically shoot himself in the head while his evil empire was ripped to shreds was getting away with it, unless someone believes in your version of god?
So, you’re clearly in some demented version of option 3 (ignore reality/believe delusion), the most common option, as I outlined.
Maybe option 1 (evil god) with the whole child death thing though, idk…Removed by mod
And the third option: to change humanity to make it more just, never occurs to you
Man, religious people are a trip
You’ve never faced down your own mortality or been in a seriously dark place, have you? I have. I don’t care how bad Hitler was, it’s not a pleasant feeling to contemplate ending things. It’s painful. It’s a position that you are put in by pain. I have enough empathy to realize that.
But more importantly, I’m not super fixated on punishment in general. I think that Hitler was obviously a horribly bad person, and that by him ending things he could no longer cause harm. That is enough.That people who believe in some god or other seem hyper fixated on retribution is not something in your favor. It does not paint you or your god in a good light. Good would be preventing bad things from happening in the first place.
Similarly, with regards to children, it is better not to have them if you can’t even make a reasonably successful effort to provide them with a more hopeful and better world full of greater opportunity and wonder and joy. That is the merciful route.
Not having children in an evil world is merciful. Wishing children die before puberty is monstrous. You argue to create pain in innocents.
You religious people with your notions of duty and retribution, pain and punishment are not painting a world or paradigm created by any kind of good entity.
You come into an atheism community and act all high and mighty as if you have something to impart to US?
It’s laughable. You have nothing but unfounded trash. You don’t come here to convince us. Be honest with yourself for one goddamned second. You come here to try and firm up the non-existent foundations of your faltering faith.
You have no proof or value to offer. Just gaping, naked need.
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None of us atheists come to your mosques. Yet, you come in here with unprovable notions and demand others prove them wrong for you. I’m done going point for point with you and extended you far too much courtesy.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”
You have no evidence. And, absolutely nothing extraordinary.
The burden of proof lies on you. And, this is not the place for it, in any case.
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That implies that “God”, whatever that means, actually cares about hairless apes on a (quite likely) unremarkable rock.
But I thought I was a very important mote of dust in the universe that has a personal relationship with said sky fairy’s son?
We are not hairless tho
It’s always been innocent children’s lives. Cancer, sexual abuse, war crimes, starvation, the Church TM. It’s always been their lives and he’s never stepped in before. But maybe the land is more important to him. Oh wait… People have been fighting over it for thousands of years you say? Well then.
I mean he goes out of his way to murder kids so im sure he is happy
“Why the goat buggering fuck are you fighting over the desert? I put green stuff everywhere for you to live in. What do you mean you chopped it down? Why are you digging that stuff up and burning it? I buried it for a reason! Fuck this, where’d I put that flood machine?”
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I’m functionally an atheist. I certainly have a disdain for religious orgs.
I’d accept the argument that this, in fact, a test. If so, religious people are failing it.
There is a novel, and damned if I can remember the title, where a rabi proposes that god commanding Abraham to kill his son was a test, which he (Abraham) failed.
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My understanding of the story (in the novel, which I still can’t remember the name) was that in knuckling under to the command to murder his own child, Abraham failed the test.
Ha! Just remembered the name of the novel. Hyperion by Dan Simmons. The Rabies name was Sol Weintraub, for what that’s worth. OK, now I can think about something else…
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The implication I’m making is that a moral deity that allows free will might allow bad things to happen as a test for people to act morally. Religion, instead has been at the root of problems and/or stood by while bad people do bad things.
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Aliens land, give us free energy and split would do it. That would put the wrinkle on so many evils that are funded by energy and pollution.
Sorry, I’m not trying to be mean, but you don’t know much about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict if you think it’s about religion.
I’m pretty sure the animosity is about Israel colonizing the area as an ethnostate. The Palestinians have as much legitimacy to the land as they do, and yet they displaced them much the way European colonists displaced the first nations in the United States and Canada.
After WWII the international community was supposed to come to terms that every people, even the least liked displaced refugee deserved regard for their personhood and to be afforded basic civil rights.
Israel has repeatedly failed to get that memo, often relying on notions that Palestinians are religious enemies, condemning Palestinian peoples as the German Reich did the Jews.
But on the international stage money and the whimsies of plutocrats decide who has guns and power, and more of them like Israel over Palestine for now. (And it’s no small detail that Israel is more white-friendly than the rest of the middle east.) Principle will be nowhere to be found if ever attitudes towards Israel change.
And this explains the objectives of Hamas and Hezbollah in the Strip. They know the Israeli state is eager to storm Gaza and jackboot every civilian neck that crosses their path. The state just needed justification to take its mask of and express the brutality in wants to. The two fronts simply provided that excuse.
And despite warnings from the US about the shit show in Fallujah, they’re chomping at the bit for it. Moreover it’s going to be a mess that the world will get to see up close, with rogue cameras and drone footage showing the truth of urban massacres that might even outdo the holicaust in instilling in us a sickness for the ultraviolence.
Israel isn’t God’s chosen, and we’re about to see exacty how much they are shit-throwing apes just like every other sectarian identity. Just like the rest of us when we fail our own principles.
Maybe, we, as a species will get it this time, but we’ve shown to be daft before.
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God is dead, Israel killed him
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