posts about what the headlines would be like if China legalized beating kids in school

Liberal: The headlines wouldn’t be much diff g. Literally so many people above the age of 50 support that shit.

Me: Nah. I feel like western med would be all over that beating the drum about China beating their kids and it would be heavily exaggerated lol like the whole social credit thing.

Liberal: No. Legit no.

Me: How so? So much over there gets misrepresented.

Liberal: I think China’s bad, G.

Me: Why? I know it’s not perfect, but it has my support.

Liberal: Bro they genocide the Muslims. Police state is it not? The way they enforce stuff. Mainstream media also has a problem with it so it almost certainly is bad in some regard. Plus destiny agrees and some politicians I like.

Me: Uyghur genocide is straight up western fabrication imo, like 30 Muslim envoys just went there and came back defending it. I’ll find the source. Alot of that was propagated by Adrian Zenz who works for the US government and the victims of communism foundation which is a joke lmao. Typical 100 billion dead stuff. As for police state I’m not sure what you consider that to be but I don’t see china gunning down minorities in the street or with 22% of the world’s prison population despite being 4% of the world’s population like the USA. What do you mean the way they enforce stuff? And mainstream media is us government and billionaire funded so it shouldn’t surprise anyone that the narrative is “china bad” and diametrically opposed to socialism. I don’t really like or watch too much destiny, but what politicians?

Liberal: I highly doubt the slaughter is fabricated. I can look into it later to prove you wrong on that. But I doubt china properly reports their imprisoned and data and they enforce things through breaches of privacy.

Me: I really don’t think it’s legit. China is poised to take us over economically and is socialist. This is plenty of reason to propagate a genocide when the world order is capitalism. link the site where the state department admits not having enough evidence to declare genocide. Furthermore, most proof for this is usually 144p satellite images of prisons or something ridiculous like that. The falling birthrate argument is bullshit because the Uyghurs have just recently been placed under the same birthrate requirements as the Han so of course they will fall. What makes china less credible than the US? Do you have the same doubts for our bureau? What kinds of breaches of privacy are you speaking of? And like the United States hasn’t been spying on the entire population the entire time?

Lib: You have to understand if we declared genocide all hell would break loose. So first off you understand there is motive for the US to cover it up and not give a fuck? Especially since yk, we don’t necessarily care of Muslims that much? I feel like that would be the first thing that should come to your head… the US don’t care about Muslims… but ig cause it’s china you are dissonance?

Me: Right, the motive is not Muslim lives, I think it’s anti-china rhetoric. and dissonance how so

Lib: Wym? uses my name look at your first message. Thats literally the us defending China gang. Come on you ain’t dumb. China is less credible because they don’t have the same checks and balances as we do and their departments are corrupt. That’s why we can say 911 actually happened and why if that Shii happened in China we would have no clue. If you really gaf about both sides you would kno why China cannot be trusted bro

Me: Departments aren’t corrupt here?!? You think our checks and balances genuinely work for the people here? And I don’t mean this in a condescending or rude way but do you know how china works? Like their system of participation?

Lib: there is a difference. Large scale deception is impossible in the US. Departments are separated in the US, in China they are not. Yes they do work for us here. I know not of one country that operates like the US.

Me: How is large scale deception impossible here bro? And you’re right they have far greater participation in many other countries lol including 🇨🇳

Lib (this is where it gets weird): Because Large scale deception implies cooperation between departments. We have real humans in the US with more means and less threat to their lives for leaking info. Prosecutions have to go through judges where everything needs to be declassified. China doesn’t work this way.

Me: You don’t think that those departments have the same class interests? And do you genuinely believe things are always declassified? Also what are you implying with “real humans in us with more means and less threat to their lives for leaking info” lol the cia has killed journalists time and time again and or locked them up.

Lib: There could be some deceptions/ things done by individual departments sure but for example, a genocide could never happen in secret. Bro, not everything has to do with class. Other values exist in this world. Plus you forget there are hundreds of thousands of people in these organizations. Things would get leaked. However, china doesn’t grant its citizens the same things to prevent leaks such as heavy regulation of the internet. uses my name, you sound very dumb when you say “do you genuinely believe all things get declassified”. With prosecutions? Literally yes. I don’t think you understand all court cases are public info G. Things have to be declassified in proesections Because it runs through the state judges. Look this up. Also, keyword CIA. A singular department. Meaning they were able to leak things. Dog you’ve been legit brainwashed if u think Uighur is faked. Like deadass that’s some conspiracy stuff to claim that shit fake

Me: I am not arguing that it couldn’t be leaked here or that everything is covered up. I’m saying some things surely are. But sure, let’s give our government the benefit of the doubt and say that these individual agencies (e.g CIA) are solely responsible for the destruction they’ve caused and no other government force had a play in it. These people were never prosecuted for MKULTRA, for the hundreds of thousands of people killed, millions of lives ruined in the global south, etc. Many things have been leaked like you said, but I think it’s incredibly naive to believe that our government is entirely transparent (Here I made an assumption about what they were saying). Where are you making these assumptions about China from? As for the internet, they are subject to cyber attacks and heavy western influence. Of course they want a secure internet. Furthermore, you can literally get a VPN or some other shit and get around it, plenty of chinese do. Nobody is coming after you for that. Yes, everything when prosecuted is declassified, I’m talking about the things that aren’t prosecuted and haven’t been leaked. Yes, we have protections in theory. This does not stop the persecution and suspicious unaliving of journalists and radical figures.

Lib: What assumptions do you refer to? Officials get away with incredibly terrible programs like MKULTRA which mind you, are INDIVIDUAL DEPARTMENTS, they have nothing to do with other departments. Deadass. Believe what you want, but that is legit how our government functions. Wdym our government is entirely transparent? I never said that. At all. my name. You are not defending there regulations on the internet gang. Deadass you’ve been brainwashed

Me: I apologize for putting words in your mouth. It seemed that was what you were saying to me

Lib: I’m saying china works together department wise to prosecute without the checks and balance given in our systems. You can be honest if you dk what you talking about. I’d also bet a lot of the journalists and figures you talk about that were unalived are genuinly just conspiracies you’ve only looked at from one side. I promise probably half of the mfs you think are subject to death by CIA is legit just a conspiracy wit little evidence. Also the VPN suggestion is laughable. Look that one up bud.

Me: having a vpn is banned, yes. That doesn’t mean there aren’t ways to get around it if you want to see the western internet so badly?

Lib:I love how In your mind the INTERNET is just WESTERN MEDIA PROPORGANDA 😭

Me: It’s not lol? I’m saying this obsession with being able to say whatever you want with no consquences and all of the shit we have to sift through here is what, in my mind, would be penetrating into Chinese internet

Lib: It’s either u have a foundamental lack of understanding how they regulate the internet, or genuinly ur brain is wired to think internet is western media… its also funny you say that. Considering you didn’t think about that when u supported the idea uigher Muslim genocide Is fake. Literal Concentration camps exist there Sure they aren’t extermination camps if that’s what you feel I’m implying but thag shit is REAL. And you’re a moron if you think it’s fake. Anyways point is Chinese are bred to be nationalist but also you believe the shit that comes out of their mouth even tho they have every reason to look out for thenselves only.

Me: I don’t appreciate the moron comment. Anyways. Yeah, every reason to look out for themselves only because they’re fucking targeted endlessly by the rest of the world for upholding a different social order lol… also Americans are bred to be nationalist hard-core too I don’t see the point. I think we’re not going to get anywhere. Support to china from me.

Lib: I think the world dislikes them for more then just upholding a “social order”

I then stop responding.

Am I stupid? Is the Liberal being overly condescending or am I just sensitive? I’d like to know your feedback. Thanks for reading if you did.

  • New0@lemmygrad.ml
    2·
    2 years ago

    I’m impressed you remained so calm.

    Discussions like this are extremely frustrating. Atrocity propaganda can be created with virtually no effort, and it proliferates easily once set in to motion. Countering it with facts requires you to have seemingly encyclopedic knowledge of history and politics on hand at all times.

    A (slightly edited) quote on war-time lies: “Man’s habit of lying is not nearly so extraordinary as his amazing readiness to believe. It is, indeed, because of human credulity that lies flourish.”

    Anyway, here’s a quote from a guy who worked for the CIA for 25 years. I hope it can help you if you get into another conversation like this.

    I want to reveal to those who still believe in the myths of the CIA what it is and what it actually does. My explanation will not include the usual pap fed to us by Agency spokesmen. My view backed by 25 years of experience is, quite simply, that the CIA is the covert action arm of the Presidency. […] The CIA is not an intelligence agency. In fact, it acts largely as an anti-intelligence agency, producing only that information wanted by policymakers to support their plans and suppressing information that does not support those plans. As the covert action arm of the President, the CIA uses disinformation, much of it aimed at the U.S. public, to mold opinion. It employs the gamut of disinformation techniques from forging documents to planting and discovering "communist” weapons caches. But the major weapon in its arsenal of disinformation is the “intelligence” it feeds to policymakers. Instead of gathering genuine intelligence that could serve as the basis for reasonable policies, the CIA often ends up distorting reality, creating out of whole cloth “intelligence” to justify policies that have already been decided upon. Policymakers then leak this “intelligence” to the media to deceive us all and gain our support. (Ralph W. McGehee, “Deadly Deceits: My 25 Years in the CIA”, p. 15)

    Aa shorter quote of his with the same essence: “The CIA is not now nor has it ever been a central intelligence agency. […] Disinformation is a large part of its covert action responsibility, and the American people are the primary target audience of its lies.” (Deadly Deceits, p. 192).

    You may also find this useful: Former CIA Agent John Stockwell Talks about How the CIA Worked in Vietnam and Elsewhere - he talks about how the CIA gives false stories to reporters, some reporters know this and purposely publish false stories planted by the CIA and some don’t know that they are planting CIA stories.

    In my war, the Angola war, that I helped to manage, 1/3 of my staff was propaganda. […] I had propagandists all over the world, principally in London, Kinshasa, and Zambia. We would take stories which we would write and put them in the Zambia Times, and then pulled them out and sent them to journalists on our payroll in Europe. But his cover story, you see, would be what he would’ve gotten from his stringer in Lusaka, who had gotten them from the Zambia Times. We had the complicity of the government of Zambia, Kenneth Kaunda if you will, to put these false stories into his newspapers. But after that point, the journalists, Reuters and AFP, the management was not witting of it. Now, our contact man in Europe was. And we pumped just dozens of stories about Cuban atrocities […] We didn’t know of one single atrocity committed by the Cubans, it was pure raw false propaganda to to create a an illusion of communists, you know, eating babies for breakfast and so forth, totally false propaganda.

    More from him:

    Another thing [the CIA does] is to disseminate propaganda to influence people’s minds, and this is a major function of the CIA. And unfortunately, of course, it overlaps into the gathering of information. You have contact with a journalist, you will give him true stories, you’ll get information from him, you’ll also give him false stories. […] You buy his confidence and set him up. We’ve seen this happen recently with Jack Anderson, for example, who has his intelligence sources, and he has also admitted that he’s been set up by them, every fifth story just simply being false. You also work on their human vulnerabilities to recruit them, in a classic sense, to make them your agent, so that you can control what they do so you don’t have to set them up. Sort of, you know, by putting one over on them so you can say, “Here, plant this one next Tuesday.” […] The Church Committee brought it out in 1975, and then Woodward and Bernstein put an article in Rolling Stone a couple of years later. Four hundred journalists cooperating with the CIA, including some of the biggest names in the business, to consciously introduce the stories into the press.

    Good luck talking with people in the future about things like this. Often, there is not much hope in a conversation like this with a person who is not poised to listen. But on the off chance you have some favorable conversation conditions sometime, I hope these quotes can help.