As much as I completely agree with your interpretation, Catholic ministers and politicians alike have gotten a bit weird about trans-substantiated wafers, asserting that it has become the real literal flesh of Jesus (though it’s grossly offensive if we were to subject a trans-substantiated wafer to scientific tests to see if it’s changed from the control).
It reminds me in the late 1980s. In response to the fatwa levied against Salman Rushdie over The Satanic Verses, there was movement to demonstrate Catholic resilience in the face of offense or mockery, and for a while the Catholic community expressed a casual stoicism we attribute to European Jews. It didn’t last, and evaporated entirely after the 9/11 attacks.
it’s grossly offensive if we were to subject a trans-substantiated wafer to scientific tests to see if it’s changed from the control
Which is funny because the obvious answer is that it instantly transubstantiates back into a cracker if you don’t have faith – which is implied by attempting to test it in any way.
If faith is like the Force (the faith of a mustard seed should allow one to work miracles just as Jesus did) that would indicate no Catholic has ever gotten true sacrament, due to insufficient faith, since we’ve never had a living person capable of doing miracles. Throwing faith into the mix raises questions regarding everyone’s communion and everyone’s salvation. Much the way of the witch trials, only those who can do magic can get into Heaven.
If we adopt the modern interpretation of faith (that is, your willingness to give up the data of your senses in order to accept an authority-informed understanding of reality) it implies that people with depression are just doomed to Hellfire. All the latchkey kids who came from an abusive, neglectful household and have deeply ingrained neuro-pathways that fire off multiple times an hour I can never be good enough. will, according to the George Carlin Class Clown interpretation of Catholic dogma are just FUBAR.
Faith, and the inability to accurately measure it or create consistent standards tosses the whole of Christianity (except Universalist denominations) into the the pit of the problem of evil. People exist who are incapable of having faith enough to elevate themselves, which God allegedly created to burn, which makes Him malevolent, at least to those individuals He so created.
Sure. The cracker is the flesh and blood of an omnipotent god? An omnipotent god can certainly tell what somebody is feeling.
I don’t actually believe in any religion so I’m not overly bothered by the idea that only magicians can get into heaven. There are so many cults and competing (and arbitrary) rules about what it takes to be rewarded for obedience… It’s hardly worth marveling at any of the weirdnesses of a particular doctrine.
though it’s grossly offensive if we were to subject a trans-substantiated wafer to scientific tests to see if it’s changed from the control
I might be mistaken but I think most Catholics would concede that scientifically examining the objects wouldn’t yield any results. What I’ve heard is that they understand that it’s not transformed literally into his flesh and blood, but it is his flesh and blood in sort of the same sense as Jesus being both God and human.
As there’s over a billion Catholics, it’s really hard to get a bead on most Catholics as it’s a really diverse group. Even among the clergy, the USCCB is a lot more conservative than even the Vatican and the CDF, and the LCWR is pretty left wing. A friend of mine is a Catholic history teacher, and as he puts it, has a small part of his brain for religious stuff that he gives a pass to, but doesn’t question it too much. I’ve even encountered downright atheist / naturalist cultural Catholics, who practice the rites, go to confession, etc. because it’s habit and something they do with family, much less informs their understanding of the natural world.
So yeah, to a lot of Catholics a wafer is just a wafer, except that it’s appointed cultural significance within a social framework. While others will believe the wafer is materially Jesus flesh while still tasting like a wafer, and 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 = 1 and they embrace the cognitive dissonance. For some reason, it reminds me of Paradox of Gabriel’s Horn, a shape with infinite surface area, but finite mass. So you could fill it with paint but couldn’t paint it.
When it comes to predatory cannibalism, maybe. We’ve a genre of horror fiction about people who learned from desperation cannibalism (think: The Donner Party snowed in in the Sierra-Nevadas) who realize they get super-powers from eating human flesh. If those were true, we’d culture the bio chemistries that convey the powers and sell them as supplements.
However, the OG cannibals (cannibal is a Taino word, originally referring to a tribe in the Caribbean) had two practices of sacred cannibalism which resonate very close to Catholic sacrament. One is honoring recently deceased elders in their tribe by eating their brains, which was supposed to pass on their wisdom and help them remember the fallen. The other is specific to fighting and defeating a formidable enemy on the field, in which the victorious warrior would harvest and consume the heart of the fallen foe to gain their strength and courage.
I suspect the notions from sacrament and sacred cannibalism might have common origins, or at least come from similar intuitions regarding how spirit magic works.
As much as I completely agree with your interpretation, Catholic ministers and politicians alike have gotten a bit weird about trans-substantiated wafers, asserting that it has become the real literal flesh of Jesus (though it’s grossly offensive if we were to subject a trans-substantiated wafer to scientific tests to see if it’s changed from the control).
It reminds me in the late 1980s. In response to the fatwa levied against Salman Rushdie over The Satanic Verses, there was movement to demonstrate Catholic resilience in the face of offense or mockery, and for a while the Catholic community expressed a casual stoicism we attribute to European Jews. It didn’t last, and evaporated entirely after the 9/11 attacks.
Which is funny because the obvious answer is that it instantly transubstantiates back into a cracker if you don’t have faith – which is implied by attempting to test it in any way.
So the biscuit knows what you’re feeling?
If faith is like the Force (the faith of a mustard seed should allow one to work miracles just as Jesus did) that would indicate no Catholic has ever gotten true sacrament, due to insufficient faith, since we’ve never had a living person capable of doing miracles. Throwing faith into the mix raises questions regarding everyone’s communion and everyone’s salvation. Much the way of the witch trials, only those who can do magic can get into Heaven.
If we adopt the modern interpretation of faith (that is, your willingness to give up the data of your senses in order to accept an authority-informed understanding of reality) it implies that people with depression are just doomed to Hellfire. All the latchkey kids who came from an abusive, neglectful household and have deeply ingrained neuro-pathways that fire off multiple times an hour I can never be good enough. will, according to the George Carlin Class Clown interpretation of Catholic dogma are just FUBAR.
Faith, and the inability to accurately measure it or create consistent standards tosses the whole of Christianity (except Universalist denominations) into the the pit of the problem of evil. People exist who are incapable of having faith enough to elevate themselves, which God allegedly created to burn, which makes Him malevolent, at least to those individuals He so created.
Sure. The cracker is the flesh and blood of an omnipotent god? An omnipotent god can certainly tell what somebody is feeling.
I don’t actually believe in any religion so I’m not overly bothered by the idea that only magicians can get into heaven. There are so many cults and competing (and arbitrary) rules about what it takes to be rewarded for obedience… It’s hardly worth marveling at any of the weirdnesses of a particular doctrine.
I might be mistaken but I think most Catholics would concede that scientifically examining the objects wouldn’t yield any results. What I’ve heard is that they understand that it’s not transformed literally into his flesh and blood, but it is his flesh and blood in sort of the same sense as Jesus being both God and human.
As there’s over a billion Catholics, it’s really hard to get a bead on most Catholics as it’s a really diverse group. Even among the clergy, the USCCB is a lot more conservative than even the Vatican and the CDF, and the LCWR is pretty left wing. A friend of mine is a Catholic history teacher, and as he puts it, has a small part of his brain for religious stuff that he gives a pass to, but doesn’t question it too much. I’ve even encountered downright atheist / naturalist cultural Catholics, who practice the rites, go to confession, etc. because it’s habit and something they do with family, much less informs their understanding of the natural world.
So yeah, to a lot of Catholics a wafer is just a wafer, except that it’s appointed cultural significance within a social framework. While others will believe the wafer is materially Jesus flesh while still tasting like a wafer, and 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 = 1 and they embrace the cognitive dissonance. For some reason, it reminds me of Paradox of Gabriel’s Horn, a shape with infinite surface area, but finite mass. So you could fill it with paint but couldn’t paint it.
I wonder if that’s how cannibalisms starts. You are worshipping god by eating him why not eat people in the same way
When it comes to predatory cannibalism, maybe. We’ve a genre of horror fiction about people who learned from desperation cannibalism (think: The Donner Party snowed in in the Sierra-Nevadas) who realize they get super-powers from eating human flesh. If those were true, we’d culture the bio chemistries that convey the powers and sell them as supplements.
However, the OG cannibals (cannibal is a Taino word, originally referring to a tribe in the Caribbean) had two practices of sacred cannibalism which resonate very close to Catholic sacrament. One is honoring recently deceased elders in their tribe by eating their brains, which was supposed to pass on their wisdom and help them remember the fallen. The other is specific to fighting and defeating a formidable enemy on the field, in which the victorious warrior would harvest and consume the heart of the fallen foe to gain their strength and courage.
I suspect the notions from sacrament and sacred cannibalism might have common origins, or at least come from similar intuitions regarding how spirit magic works.