With all due respect, it’s not about you being wrong. It’s about the fact that you went into that as evidence of some big failure by the show after I was unimpressed by the (incredibly common) nitpick about where background elements show up in 10-15sec of the entire show, and pointed out that all but one EVEN MORE minor piece of one of those nitpicks were lore-correct.
In your words “they could have made up any name for the concoction and we would have accepted it, or if they were really good, they’d look up what Nynaeve gave Moiraine to help her sleep in Shader Logoth. Instead, in their eagerness to drop an easter egg, they went with something that doesn’t make any sense in context.”
When…they did it correctly. And, consistently, they have done so far better than most readers who like to criticize them. I’m not quite sure what you’re looking for in a show in terms of fidelity if “people who know the books far better than I ever will” isn’t enough.
And perhaps you should take a breath. I meant it when I said I’m being charitable, not as condescention. Literally over half the discussions I have in this vein with the arguments you’re using ends with the other side devolving into a racist, sexist, or anti-gay rant. I am being charitable in NOT yet concluding that this one will do the same. That is legitimately charitable. I know the sourcing of some of your critiques, even if you think you came up with them yourself. Most came from whitecloaks.
So yes, I’m being charitable, not condescening, in keeping an open mind that you’re just having a well-meaning conversation unlike a majority of the people I’ve dealt with on this topic.
But it is wearing to hear the same tired arguments again and again knowing their bad-faith origins.
Contriving something that is not true is a bad faith origin. Complaining without watching the show is bad faith. Mishearing / misremembering is not bad faith. I made a mistake and admitted to it. I stand by my geography arguments - details like that make me start thinking about how things are different, and I don’t want to think about how things are different. I want to be immersed in the show. I’m finding that enjoy the show more on second and subsequent watches because those jarring details lose some of their impact once I’m aware they are there. You don’t agree and made your case.
I know the sourcing of some of your critiques, even if you think you came up with them yourself.
And that’s where you stop being charitable. I’ve been reading and re-reading the books for over 20 years, and my post history on Reddit shows that I have been defending the show from day one. That doesn’t mean there aren’t problems and/or things that hit me the wrong way. I shouldn’t have to apologize for wanting to discuss them.
I think you missed my point. Look at “omg, Perrin’s crush is bullshit” as an example (since it lets you stop taking this point personally). It is an extremely common (and inaccurate) take about the Wheel of Time show. There is nothing inherently racist/sexist about it, but there is one little other factoid. It comes from the whitecloak subreddit. So when you hear it, odds are really good that it comes directly or indirectly from that place. The best way to show that a thought isn’t original is to show that it is wrong in the same way a previous take was, because it virtually guarantees it is derivitive of that.
That doesn’t mean everyone who says “Perrin’s Crush” is necessarily a whitecloak or drinking their kool aid. But then 2/3 of people evolve the “Perrin’s Crush” topic to “and Woke Rafe is immasculating men and putting gay sex everywhere!” You can understand why hearing 2 or 3 separate one of those hot takes might lead someone to clench their cheeks and wait for the (hopefully not) inevitable next step.
In your geography argument, you DID some of that. The paths we’re seeing Rand+Mat take in the show work on a map of the Tar Valon area unless you get hyperliteral with the interpretation of roads despite the fact we know they left the roads in both canons. I have heard that exact argument at least a dozen times, and it is an incorrect take. I have trouble seeing how you would independently come up with the same incorrect take as them. Similarly, while the critique of the position of the Stone of Tear is valid, the critique of its elevation is NOT (and the original complaint I heard about it included the same invalid complaint).
It’s not your FAULT if you hear a complaint and become convinced it’s valid and embrace it. I actually did that around the release date for a while until I really processed it. We humans are more derivative beings than we would like to admit. That’s why I said I was being charitable.
I know the sourcing of some of your critiques, even if you think you came up with them yourself.
And that’s where you stop being charitable.
I disagree. I think you’re taking my point wrong. Let me put it this way. I thought Semhirage killed a certain famous character and thought it was my own idea for a while. It was wrong, for the wrong reasons, and my opinion was absolutely driven by the fact others had discussed it and (without my realization) it stuck in my head.
Flipside, for a very short time in the early 90’s I thought Birgitte was the Daughter of the Nine Moons. I can guarantee I came up with that particular pile of manure on my own :)
I’m not trying to say you’re a whitecloak. I was calling you on the increasing pettiness and inaccuracy of your critiques. That said, and in fairness, I do believe sheepstongue root is your own personal “Birgitte is the Do9M” and I would not have said what I said if it were the only thing I heard out of you.
With all due respect, it’s not about you being wrong. It’s about the fact that you went into that as evidence of some big failure by the show after I was unimpressed by the (incredibly common) nitpick about where background elements show up in 10-15sec of the entire show, and pointed out that all but one EVEN MORE minor piece of one of those nitpicks were lore-correct.
In your words “they could have made up any name for the concoction and we would have accepted it, or if they were really good, they’d look up what Nynaeve gave Moiraine to help her sleep in Shader Logoth. Instead, in their eagerness to drop an easter egg, they went with something that doesn’t make any sense in context.”
When…they did it correctly. And, consistently, they have done so far better than most readers who like to criticize them. I’m not quite sure what you’re looking for in a show in terms of fidelity if “people who know the books far better than I ever will” isn’t enough.
And perhaps you should take a breath. I meant it when I said I’m being charitable, not as condescention. Literally over half the discussions I have in this vein with the arguments you’re using ends with the other side devolving into a racist, sexist, or anti-gay rant. I am being charitable in NOT yet concluding that this one will do the same. That is legitimately charitable. I know the sourcing of some of your critiques, even if you think you came up with them yourself. Most came from whitecloaks.
So yes, I’m being charitable, not condescening, in keeping an open mind that you’re just having a well-meaning conversation unlike a majority of the people I’ve dealt with on this topic.
But it is wearing to hear the same tired arguments again and again knowing their bad-faith origins.
Contriving something that is not true is a bad faith origin. Complaining without watching the show is bad faith. Mishearing / misremembering is not bad faith. I made a mistake and admitted to it. I stand by my geography arguments - details like that make me start thinking about how things are different, and I don’t want to think about how things are different. I want to be immersed in the show. I’m finding that enjoy the show more on second and subsequent watches because those jarring details lose some of their impact once I’m aware they are there. You don’t agree and made your case.
And that’s where you stop being charitable. I’ve been reading and re-reading the books for over 20 years, and my post history on Reddit shows that I have been defending the show from day one. That doesn’t mean there aren’t problems and/or things that hit me the wrong way. I shouldn’t have to apologize for wanting to discuss them.
And by the way, I’m the one who suggested the trolls go make /r/whitecloaks. I was more amused than anyone when they actually did.
I think you missed my point. Look at “omg, Perrin’s crush is bullshit” as an example (since it lets you stop taking this point personally). It is an extremely common (and inaccurate) take about the Wheel of Time show. There is nothing inherently racist/sexist about it, but there is one little other factoid. It comes from the whitecloak subreddit. So when you hear it, odds are really good that it comes directly or indirectly from that place. The best way to show that a thought isn’t original is to show that it is wrong in the same way a previous take was, because it virtually guarantees it is derivitive of that.
That doesn’t mean everyone who says “Perrin’s Crush” is necessarily a whitecloak or drinking their kool aid. But then 2/3 of people evolve the “Perrin’s Crush” topic to “and Woke Rafe is immasculating men and putting gay sex everywhere!” You can understand why hearing 2 or 3 separate one of those hot takes might lead someone to clench their cheeks and wait for the (hopefully not) inevitable next step.
In your geography argument, you DID some of that. The paths we’re seeing Rand+Mat take in the show work on a map of the Tar Valon area unless you get hyperliteral with the interpretation of roads despite the fact we know they left the roads in both canons. I have heard that exact argument at least a dozen times, and it is an incorrect take. I have trouble seeing how you would independently come up with the same incorrect take as them. Similarly, while the critique of the position of the Stone of Tear is valid, the critique of its elevation is NOT (and the original complaint I heard about it included the same invalid complaint).
It’s not your FAULT if you hear a complaint and become convinced it’s valid and embrace it. I actually did that around the release date for a while until I really processed it. We humans are more derivative beings than we would like to admit. That’s why I said I was being charitable.
I disagree. I think you’re taking my point wrong. Let me put it this way. I thought Semhirage killed a certain famous character and thought it was my own idea for a while. It was wrong, for the wrong reasons, and my opinion was absolutely driven by the fact others had discussed it and (without my realization) it stuck in my head.
Flipside, for a very short time in the early 90’s I thought Birgitte was the Daughter of the Nine Moons. I can guarantee I came up with that particular pile of manure on my own :)
I’m not trying to say you’re a whitecloak. I was calling you on the increasing pettiness and inaccuracy of your critiques. That said, and in fairness, I do believe sheepstongue root is your own personal “Birgitte is the Do9M” and I would not have said what I said if it were the only thing I heard out of you.