Ok so obviously this is anecdotal evidence but my personal experience with this is that the people who support Russia are pretty much all right wing. The farther to the right they are , the harder they’re buying into Russian propaganda.
I haven’t seen actual support from the left in real life, but more some sort of vague both-siding and “understanding” and stuff like that. And that’s come from both left and right (not center-left or center-right), but as a minority opinion. Old Stalinists, some left-wingers closer to the left side than center, then some right to far right. I think for the left it might also be the heritage of USSR alignment and peace mindedness. For the right, I’m not even really sure. Some sort of “anti-West” in the sort of “anti-globalism” sense which make you go hmmmm and then there’s been some pretty sus financial ties.
OP should, but the entire reason he posted it was to pretend that anyone to his left is a Russian sympathizer, and to try to discredit anyone who opposes genocide elsewhere.
Oh, so now you’re in favor of me calling people tankies? Curious, because you’ve repeatedly complained when the label is applied. Almost like this is agreeing with someone in bad faith.
I’ve also found ensign crab will speak in such round about ways that you have no idea what he’s saying, and then he can take either position depending how it goes.
Fucking hilarious, considering the things I’ve said about Israel in general and the Israeli right in particular. But I suppose you’d have nothing to say if you didn’t have blatant lies at hand.
Says the person who gets their shit removed for misinformation…. You love accusing people of the exact opposite of what they say in their own defense of your accusations… PJ has said plenty enough for anyone in their right mind to know where they stand on the issue.
The only one here that is doubtful, is you. And there’s receipts.
Ironically, they’ll call you a “lib” for holding any position in between “we should revoke Obamacare” to “it’d be nice if we could organize more unions”.
You’re literally looking at a post with the word “leftists” to talk about people who support Putin, do you really not think there hasn’t been a slide of what “tankie” means to the point that now some people like OP will use it indistinguishably?
The use has expanded but I haven’t seen it used as a general term for the left, if that’s what you mean.
The term is now extended to describe people who endorse, defend, or deny the crimes committed by communist leaders such as Vladimir Lenin,[9][10] Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong. In recent times, the term has been used across the political spectrum and in a geopolitical context to describe those who have a bias in favour of anti-Western states, authoritarian states or states with a socialist legacy, such as Belarus, Cuba, China,[4] Syria,[11] North Korea, and Russia. Additionally, the term pejoratively describes political activists who are said to have a tendency to be favorable towards non-socialist states and political groupings with no affiliation to socialism if they are opposed to the United States, regardless of their ideology, such as Iran or Hezbollah.
Can be pretty vague but doesn’t really label all leftists as tankies, rather those that are authoritarian or apologists for authoritarians. Last part is pretty vague though, but I haven’t seen it used like that iirc.
But I thought tankie (and not just authoritarian or some other word) meant leftists (specifically communists) that are pro-authoritarianism. I’ve seen people often saying that tankies aren’t leftists but to me it just seems like they are, but just the shit kind. Would be a lot nicer not to share even the vague space of “leftism” with them but I think there’s not much to be done about that.
Nah, people who support authoritarianism can’t be leftists or communists by definition. Marx defined communism as stateless. There’s no such thing as a communist who supports the state.
The stateless communism is the end state and I think many authoritarian communists still (at least claim to) believe and want that, but they are fine with authoritarianism of one sort or another while building towards that end goal. Marxism-Leninism is like that I believe.
There’s a lot of currents of communism and leftism that are fine with authoritarianism as a “temporary necessity” or some other justification like that. I think both Marx and Engels wrote about that.
I feel like left-wing is similar sort of vague grouping as right-wing that it incorporates both authoritarian and anti-authoritarian views and ideologies.
Marxism-Leninism isn’t about authoritarianism, the idea of a vanguard party composed of intellectual revolutionaries that guides the broader people to revolution, isn’t authoritarian in and out of itself, as much as anticommunist leftists try to smear it. It’s about understanding the usefulness of centralization and coalition in a wide front that shows unity in action. That doesn’t go against democracy.
But their actual plan for the socialist state “withering way” amounts to pixie tears and fairy dust. People who theoretically want leftism but have no plan of action to achieve it are just liberals.
But their actual plan for the socialist state “withering way” amounts to pixie tears and fairy dust.
A lot of people say that about communism in general. There’s quite a few prominent leftist ideologies that are utopian and I wouldn’t use that to claim they’re not actually leftist.
People who theoretically want leftism but have no plan of action to achieve it are just liberals.
I don’t understand how that would make it liberalism. That’d just make them impractical or utopian or maybe even half-baked but I see no reason to claim they’re not leftist. “Leftist” isn’t a guarantee of quality in itself, after all. It’s just a vague grouping of very distinct ideologies.
I’m not entirely sure about this one but wasn’t Marx’s ideas also at least somewhat without a proper plan of action since it was rather a vision of things to come than a guide?
What a ridiculous and reductionist thing to say. Marx and Engles strongly and frequently criticized anarchists, instead taking the position that after the revolution, the state would need to be maintained under a “dictatorship of the proletariat” at least until the social conditions that created it had been changed, at which point it would gradually “wither away.” Of course the end goal is a stateless society, but it’s plain as day in his writings and his opposition to anarchists that he believed it was necessary to use the state to achieve the necessary conditions for that end goal. Regardless of what you think of it, that’s just a historical fact.
Except for the part where he didn’t actually believe in a communist revolution until his later years when he saw the failures of the vanguard. Hey, we’re not all born perfect, we have to learn from experiences.
You should change it to tankies instead of leftists.
Unfortunately, as people in this thread show, even non-tankie leftists can be sucked in by Russian talking points.
Ok so obviously this is anecdotal evidence but my personal experience with this is that the people who support Russia are pretty much all right wing. The farther to the right they are , the harder they’re buying into Russian propaganda.
I haven’t seen actual support from the left in real life, but more some sort of vague both-siding and “understanding” and stuff like that. And that’s come from both left and right (not center-left or center-right), but as a minority opinion. Old Stalinists, some left-wingers closer to the left side than center, then some right to far right. I think for the left it might also be the heritage of USSR alignment and peace mindedness. For the right, I’m not even really sure. Some sort of “anti-West” in the sort of “anti-globalism” sense which make you go hmmmm and then there’s been some pretty sus financial ties.
I strongly suggest seeking out professional help because you clearly live in an alternate reality.
The name people usually use is Finland but your name is good too
Ikr, I have yet to meet a single leftist that supports Russia in its current form.
Do you ever punch to your right? You claim to be so far left but only punch left.
Best separate them to help out.
I’m reading a different thread than you then.
OP should, but the entire reason he posted it was to pretend that anyone to his left is a Russian sympathizer, and to try to discredit anyone who opposes genocide elsewhere.
And for the record, fuck Putin and fuck Russia.
Oh, so now you’re in favor of me calling people tankies? Curious, because you’ve repeatedly complained when the label is applied. Almost like this is agreeing with someone in bad faith.
But of course, you would never do that, right? :)
I’ve also found ensign crab will speak in such round about ways that you have no idea what he’s saying, and then he can take either position depending how it goes.
Why, it’s almost as though you call everyone to your left tankies regardless of their actual politics.
lmao, sorry for having respect for anarchists and my fellow demsocs but not red-painted fascist fucks.
Removed by mod
Fucking hilarious, considering the things I’ve said about Israel in general and the Israeli right in particular. But I suppose you’d have nothing to say if you didn’t have blatant lies at hand.
Considering the sheer hatred you have for anyone who says that Biden should stop supporting genocide, the things you say about Israel are in doubt.
Says the person who gets their shit removed for misinformation…. You love accusing people of the exact opposite of what they say in their own defense of your accusations… PJ has said plenty enough for anyone in their right mind to know where they stand on the issue.
The only one here that is doubtful, is you. And there’s receipts.
lol
Nah, the mask is off. It’s clear that a lot of people who are obsessed with tankies just hate the left in general and use tankies as a proxy.
I keep hearing this but I almost always see the word used correctly for communists supportive of authoritarianism
Ironically, they’ll call you a “lib” for holding any position in between “we should revoke Obamacare” to “it’d be nice if we could organize more unions”.
You’re literally looking at a post with the word “leftists” to talk about people who support Putin, do you really not think there hasn’t been a slide of what “tankie” means to the point that now some people like OP will use it indistinguishably?
The use has expanded but I haven’t seen it used as a general term for the left, if that’s what you mean.
Can be pretty vague but doesn’t really label all leftists as tankies, rather those that are authoritarian or apologists for authoritarians. Last part is pretty vague though, but I haven’t seen it used like that iirc.
I didn’t mean that they’re using it to describe the left, I meant that OP is using “the left” to talk about tankies.
The point is it’s tankies (and Trumpers) that defend Russia, not people on the left side of the spectrum.
But I thought tankie (and not just authoritarian or some other word) meant leftists (specifically communists) that are pro-authoritarianism. I’ve seen people often saying that tankies aren’t leftists but to me it just seems like they are, but just the shit kind. Would be a lot nicer not to share even the vague space of “leftism” with them but I think there’s not much to be done about that.
What can be done is to start calling them tankies instead of leftists.
I think that’s already being done, it’s just they don’t call themselves tankies that often so people who don’t know as well get confused
Nah, people who support authoritarianism can’t be leftists or communists by definition. Marx defined communism as stateless. There’s no such thing as a communist who supports the state.
The stateless communism is the end state and I think many authoritarian communists still (at least claim to) believe and want that, but they are fine with authoritarianism of one sort or another while building towards that end goal. Marxism-Leninism is like that I believe.
There’s a lot of currents of communism and leftism that are fine with authoritarianism as a “temporary necessity” or some other justification like that. I think both Marx and Engels wrote about that.
I feel like left-wing is similar sort of vague grouping as right-wing that it incorporates both authoritarian and anti-authoritarian views and ideologies.
Marxism-Leninism isn’t about authoritarianism, the idea of a vanguard party composed of intellectual revolutionaries that guides the broader people to revolution, isn’t authoritarian in and out of itself, as much as anticommunist leftists try to smear it. It’s about understanding the usefulness of centralization and coalition in a wide front that shows unity in action. That doesn’t go against democracy.
But their actual plan for the socialist state “withering way” amounts to pixie tears and fairy dust. People who theoretically want leftism but have no plan of action to achieve it are just liberals.
A lot of people say that about communism in general. There’s quite a few prominent leftist ideologies that are utopian and I wouldn’t use that to claim they’re not actually leftist.
I don’t understand how that would make it liberalism. That’d just make them impractical or utopian or maybe even half-baked but I see no reason to claim they’re not leftist. “Leftist” isn’t a guarantee of quality in itself, after all. It’s just a vague grouping of very distinct ideologies.
I’m not entirely sure about this one but wasn’t Marx’s ideas also at least somewhat without a proper plan of action since it was rather a vision of things to come than a guide?
What a ridiculous and reductionist thing to say. Marx and Engles strongly and frequently criticized anarchists, instead taking the position that after the revolution, the state would need to be maintained under a “dictatorship of the proletariat” at least until the social conditions that created it had been changed, at which point it would gradually “wither away.” Of course the end goal is a stateless society, but it’s plain as day in his writings and his opposition to anarchists that he believed it was necessary to use the state to achieve the necessary conditions for that end goal. Regardless of what you think of it, that’s just a historical fact.
Yeah, Marx was a fool sometimes.
Fool or not, he was, pretty indisputably, a communist who believed in using a state to achieve his goals.
Except for the part where he didn’t actually believe in a communist revolution until his later years when he saw the failures of the vanguard. Hey, we’re not all born perfect, we have to learn from experiences.