I do wish Linux was friendlier for the average person. I use it and I recommend it (via PopOS) to some people but other folk would have a heck of a time with maintaining it.
My elderly parents in their 60s use linux mint daily and have never had an issue with it (admittedly I did have to set it up for them still). I just set up the desktop shortcuts for them to their websites and turn on automatic updates. The hardest part isn’t using an alternative OS like mint or pop, its getting an average person to figure out how to install it. Getting into your BIOS to boot into the installation drive, re-partitioning your harddrive to free up space for dual booting or nuking windows off all together, those are the hardest parts for any first timers IMO. After youve done it a dozen times its no problemo but the first time is nerve racking at least it was to me.
Kinda disagree here, my parents also won’t install Windows or any other OS by themselves. An average person isn’t going to switch to an alternate OS. Because they do not care.
An average person however IS going to want that specific Windows only mail client, legacy applications that don’t run on Linux or use their bank website that isn’t supported by Linux.
This is a one way ticket to making yourself the sole family sysadmin.
Becoming the sole family admin is an inevitability. Unless your family are all people who read manuals, and they’re not, you are the sole family admin already and probably don’t know it.
And as the sole sysadmin of my family I am going to prioritize keeping them in familiar environments to reduce my ticket load as I don’t have a tier 1 group to handle them.
I had my Mom and Dad using Ubuntu like 12yrs ago. He was fine using it for like 6-9 months, I was impressed… Then he got a high end slide scanner that literally only worked with custom software in Windows XP. And then my Mom needed some windows only software for her hobbies and well, they both have Windows now and it’s somehow reduced my tech support and they’re happy, so whatever. I’ll stick to Linux/Mac and everyone’s happy.
It really comes down to “use the right tool for the job”.
there is an ‘oem setup’ you can run. so ive been taking old desktop PCs, running them through the oem setup where i can configure the drivers and everything, and then shut it down.
Then on first boot when i hand it to a new end user, they just follow the instructions. i tell them to leave most things default and theres never really any issues… printers sometimes i spose
I propose an “e-printer.” It’ll just be an e-reader that you can send images, documents, any non-moving media to via a “print” icon. It’ll have options on how to format the file browser, including a view called “piles” where it shows a disheveled layering of whatever files are in that directory instead of a folder icon. Previewing items in the “piles” view would let you “thumb through” the corners of the “printouts” until you find the one you suspect is the right file. The first select shows an image preview of the file, the second select fully opens the file. Extra points if we can open the file using a voice command such as “ahhhh, there it is.”
so, a pdf ‘printer’ basically. anything you print gets dumped to pdf files… which can be previewed, searched, annotated, organized into directories (piles) etc. as well as sent to and shared with others, or even printed on a dead tree.
Actually, yes. And make it compress and process the PDF real slow-like with a bunch of horrible noises that are frightening to pets.
My intent though is to avoid the inclusion of dead trees in this process, but still create an analog for all the horrible inconveniences of printing on dead trees that my older tech support clients argue are features.
Now I’m wondering if I could combine the dot matrix printer sound with the sound a 9600 baud Hayes modem makes when someone in the house picks up a phone
OSX had stacks, and has quick view that does all that piles stuff. I tried them out for about a week when they were first introduced. Grids are better for a reason.
And the print dialogs all have save PDF instead, but automating an eReader upload is a neat idea.
Stacks was exactly my inspiration web describing piles, and gallery is kinda my inspiration on how to “thumb through” files. Except my idea would require a lot of resources dedicated to high quality compressed previews of documents.
Also, I’m not proposing this like I think I’ve come up with an invention. I’m just hoping that my random musings would inspire someone with far more technological knowhow than myself. When I worked in mobile tech support, I quickly realized that the majority of issues that let bad-actor computer repair companies take advantage of old people revolved around printing stuff.
Even though I no longer work in tech support, I still offer free basic tech support and computer repairs to older members of my community to try to make amends for having worked for such bloodsucking companies.
Age is no barrier for Linux adoption, but some people just… don’t have the bandwidth to dive into something new. If you use Windows at work, all of the programs you own (or really, license) are Windows, your files are tragically stored in OneDrive… you really have to WANT to branch out to move to something that for your use case is comparable.
People say this but if you’re just using something like Linux Mint, it’s vastly simpler than Windows.
The search works. Never will you open the start menu, search for an app, and instead get ads and bing results.
All functions are done through graphical programs (terminal isn’t needed).
It’s laid out in the usual Windows UX, complete with a taskbar at the bottom, start button in the bottom left that opens a familiar menu, minimise, maximise, and close buttons in the top right of a window.
Apps are installed through an app store, rather than searching online, hoping you’ve downloaded the right installer, opening it, going through the installer, deleting the installer afterwards.
Auto updates can easily be enabled at first time setup, in the tutorial program that runs upon first boot.
A distro like Mint is easier than Windows or MacOS. It doesn’t need to be made any simpler, it just needs to be available out of the box on more devices, because no average user will ever change their OS, not even to an easier to use one.
There’s a guy above that listed 11 issues that he couldn’t figure out when he swallowed from Windows to mint. I swear the Linux maximalists just repeat “Linux works perfectly” on loop hoping that’ll make it true
I never said you’ll never run into issues. Desktop OSes are intrinsically more complicated than, say, a notes app.
But if you think people don’t run into issues on Windows all the time, or that no time was spent learning how windows works, then you’re out of your mind.
Mint is objectively easier to use than Windows. I’m not telling you to use it. Use what you want. I’m just giving you the info.
i sWeAr WiNdOwS mAxImaLisTs jUsT rEpEaT “wIndOWs wOrKs pErFecTlY” oN LoOp hOpiNG tHat’LL mAkE iT tRuE
We’re not talking about complicated things that need learning. We’re talking about the fingerprint scanner not working in mint or the scrolling being a super sensitive default speed
If you need to dive into online forums to fix your os installation, instead of just going into the settings app, then it is not “objectively easier than windows”
Friend of mine has a System76 laptop and had to talk to their support about issues with the webcam on certain apps. It was fixed but they asked him to check lsusb. This guy only knows the basics of the terminal from me having to teach him.
The windows environment, as f*d as it is, is the ONLY mental model they are capable of. I have a short list of very needy users who cannot remember their f’ing password. Any of them, much less that there are multiple passwords.
Every day it’s some random BS with email, or scroll bars or something that makes me think FFS why is everyone this incapable of grasping a simple web search??
I moved some of them to Apple because I’m not touching M$ with a ten-foot pole anymore. Oh god, the anguish I heard. The screams. The scroll bars just disappear!!! AAiiiiGhhhh! They close out windows and think that’s closing the program. “But I restarted it!” No you didn’t. They have no idea what desktops are, much less multiple ones. No C drive?? No C drive? complete catatonia. It’s never-ending.
Long story short, the entirety of the computer revolution (that was a thing we called it once, which was the style at the time) is very much just Windows for them. That’s it. If you can make a Linux system mirror exactly Windows 10 in every respect and - AND - run all of Microsoft’s products with no incursion of *nix-ism at all then they’ll be happy. Well, not happy. Not-always-crying-in-panic. Obviously, that’s never going to happen.
I’ve hated Microsoft for so long; I’ve long since given up on them ceasing to be a cancer on the modern world, it’s all I can do to just erase them from every corner of my computing experience where possible.
Oh, and then they tell me about some window with some warning text on it. My first question is: Who is asking? Is it something Windows is asking you? Is it some other app? Is it a fake ad on a website. Context matters a lot, and some people don’t seem to know that context even exists.
And when you do get an error message, it’s usually descriptive. Like a generic permission denied then a file path to the file where there was an issue or something like that.
You get an error message in Windows and it’s usually something along the lines of 0xc000021a. Thank you, Microsoft. Very legible!
Difference for the average user is that there are 10^4 shops per square mile of Windows capable support shops in most places. Meanwhile, my local area has “that weird AI called Melpomene” for Linux support.
I’m not discounting System76’s support (hell to my friend Linux is hard, but rewarding), but I am saying that this sort of thing is still alien to the average consumer. I’ve seen university students not know what a command line is.
Or the inevitable “PopOS muted my audio and I had to dive into terminal to unmute myself” issue I run into every month or three. I am fine rolling my eyes and fixing it… most people are not.
Installing apps outside of the Pop Shop for instance. Getting something installed via terminal is a lot of ask of the average user; they just want things to work (and I am not inclined to be their forever support.)
linux is great for two types of people… those that just need a browser or libreoffice and could use even a livecd or reset-on-reboot kiosk mode type se;tup that’s been set up for them, and those that want to get their hands dirty.
for everyone else, it can really be a pain in the ass sometimes when something goes wrong. help is fragmented in even more ways than the distros themselves, and every third response is usually something along the lines of ‘google it’ (“i did, that’s how i got here”) or ‘rtfm’ (“what fucking manual?”–documentation is lacking for soooo many things) and then silence.
at least with windows you should already know going-in that ‘backup and reinstall’ is probably high-up at #3 on the list of things to try/do, after you search and scan a much larger pile of resources specific to windows and its (relatively few, by comparison) different versions.
This is a take I would have agreed with 10 years ago but not today.
There’s also the SteamDeck and gaming is a very valid use case now. I do admittedly like getting my hands dirty but I use Linux as a daily driver for school and home.
The forum culture has gotten a bit better. It used to be like that more often 10 years ago but now people seem more helpful. It also really depends on what you google. (E.g. my desktop crashed Linux help vs gnome crash error from logs) But you’re also expecting a lot of free support from the community. If you need support buy Linux from a company that offers support like System76, Steam, etc.
Ok, and you can also just backup and reinstall Linux?? In fact some distros automatic snapshots of your system get taken and you can roll back from the terminal, GUI, or bootloader.
The last one I just don’t get. Windows errors are cryptic hieroglyphics or UX’d to uselessness. At least I’m Linux it tells me what went wrong either on the screen or in logs. Even with visual bugs I’ve been able to find an exact bug report with the developers response and the version it will be fixed in after some Googling.
help is fragmented in even more ways than the distros themselves, and every third response is usually something along the lines of ‘google it’ (“i did, that’s how i got here”) or ‘rtfm’ (“what fucking manual?”–documentation is lacking for soooo many things) and then silence.
This, and persistent sound driver issues, are what ultimately drove me away after using Linux as my primary for a few years. Forums were also filled with shorthand and they wouldn’t tell you what to actually type into the fucking terminal. Can’t figure out what the shorthand means? Too bad, because nobody will tell you.
Totally agree, but with the caveat that if you have to support this user anwyay, bite the bullet and switch to Apple - at least they can still run Office and pretend it’s windows while still benefitting from simply restarting everything as a fix.
My mom is running Fedora 38 on a T14 Gen 2. It’s much more reliable than her old macbook, but we did have some issues with the sound driver, and the fingerprint reader is like Sex Panther cologne - 60% of the time, it works every time.
I do wish Linux was friendlier for the average person. I use it and I recommend it (via PopOS) to some people but other folk would have a heck of a time with maintaining it.
My elderly parents in their 60s use linux mint daily and have never had an issue with it (admittedly I did have to set it up for them still). I just set up the desktop shortcuts for them to their websites and turn on automatic updates. The hardest part isn’t using an alternative OS like mint or pop, its getting an average person to figure out how to install it. Getting into your BIOS to boot into the installation drive, re-partitioning your harddrive to free up space for dual booting or nuking windows off all together, those are the hardest parts for any first timers IMO. After youve done it a dozen times its no problemo but the first time is nerve racking at least it was to me.
Kinda disagree here, my parents also won’t install Windows or any other OS by themselves. An average person isn’t going to switch to an alternate OS. Because they do not care.
An average person however IS going to want that specific Windows only mail client, legacy applications that don’t run on Linux or use their bank website that isn’t supported by Linux.
This is a one way ticket to making yourself the sole family sysadmin.
Becoming the sole family admin is an inevitability. Unless your family are all people who read manuals, and they’re not, you are the sole family admin already and probably don’t know it.
And as the sole sysadmin of my family I am going to prioritize keeping them in familiar environments to reduce my ticket load as I don’t have a tier 1 group to handle them.
What the fuck bank do you use that looks at your OS and says “fuck that guy”?? It’s a fucking website
Plenty of banks, if not most, will keep you out just for using a known VPN.
I had my Mom and Dad using Ubuntu like 12yrs ago. He was fine using it for like 6-9 months, I was impressed… Then he got a high end slide scanner that literally only worked with custom software in Windows XP. And then my Mom needed some windows only software for her hobbies and well, they both have Windows now and it’s somehow reduced my tech support and they’re happy, so whatever. I’ll stick to Linux/Mac and everyone’s happy.
It really comes down to “use the right tool for the job”.
there is an ‘oem setup’ you can run. so ive been taking old desktop PCs, running them through the oem setup where i can configure the drivers and everything, and then shut it down.
Then on first boot when i hand it to a new end user, they just follow the instructions. i tell them to leave most things default and theres never really any issues… printers sometimes i spose
I propose an “e-printer.” It’ll just be an e-reader that you can send images, documents, any non-moving media to via a “print” icon. It’ll have options on how to format the file browser, including a view called “piles” where it shows a disheveled layering of whatever files are in that directory instead of a folder icon. Previewing items in the “piles” view would let you “thumb through” the corners of the “printouts” until you find the one you suspect is the right file. The first select shows an image preview of the file, the second select fully opens the file. Extra points if we can open the file using a voice command such as “ahhhh, there it is.”
so, a pdf ‘printer’ basically. anything you print gets dumped to pdf files… which can be previewed, searched, annotated, organized into directories (piles) etc. as well as sent to and shared with others, or even printed on a dead tree.
most of my ‘printing’ is already done this way.
Actually, yes. And make it compress and process the PDF real slow-like with a bunch of horrible noises that are frightening to pets.
My intent though is to avoid the inclusion of dead trees in this process, but still create an analog for all the horrible inconveniences of printing on dead trees that my older tech support clients argue are features.
DOT MATRIX PRINTER NOISES INTENSIFY
OKIDATA POWERS ACTIVATE
Instructions unclear; reader broke when I tore off the perforated edges; paper accordion fold appears impossible
Dot Matrix Printer: IT IS ALL PART OF MY CHARM
Now I’m wondering if I could combine the dot matrix printer sound with the sound a 9600 baud Hayes modem makes when someone in the house picks up a phone
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
OKIDATA POWERS ACTIVATE
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
it really should just be a print process that inevitably fails with an incomprehensible error code or a demand for money.
“PC Load Letter? What the fuck does that mean?!”
A boring dystopia
OSX had stacks, and has quick view that does all that piles stuff. I tried them out for about a week when they were first introduced. Grids are better for a reason.
And the print dialogs all have save PDF instead, but automating an eReader upload is a neat idea.
Stacks was exactly my inspiration web describing piles, and gallery is kinda my inspiration on how to “thumb through” files. Except my idea would require a lot of resources dedicated to high quality compressed previews of documents.
Also, I’m not proposing this like I think I’ve come up with an invention. I’m just hoping that my random musings would inspire someone with far more technological knowhow than myself. When I worked in mobile tech support, I quickly realized that the majority of issues that let bad-actor computer repair companies take advantage of old people revolved around printing stuff.
Even though I no longer work in tech support, I still offer free basic tech support and computer repairs to older members of my community to try to make amends for having worked for such bloodsucking companies.
Age is no barrier for Linux adoption, but some people just… don’t have the bandwidth to dive into something new. If you use Windows at work, all of the programs you own (or really, license) are Windows, your files are tragically stored in OneDrive… you really have to WANT to branch out to move to something that for your use case is comparable.
People say this but if you’re just using something like Linux Mint, it’s vastly simpler than Windows.
The search works. Never will you open the start menu, search for an app, and instead get ads and bing results.
All functions are done through graphical programs (terminal isn’t needed).
It’s laid out in the usual Windows UX, complete with a taskbar at the bottom, start button in the bottom left that opens a familiar menu, minimise, maximise, and close buttons in the top right of a window.
Apps are installed through an app store, rather than searching online, hoping you’ve downloaded the right installer, opening it, going through the installer, deleting the installer afterwards.
Auto updates can easily be enabled at first time setup, in the tutorial program that runs upon first boot.
A distro like Mint is easier than Windows or MacOS. It doesn’t need to be made any simpler, it just needs to be available out of the box on more devices, because no average user will ever change their OS, not even to an easier to use one.
There’s a guy above that listed 11 issues that he couldn’t figure out when he swallowed from Windows to mint. I swear the Linux maximalists just repeat “Linux works perfectly” on loop hoping that’ll make it true
I never said you’ll never run into issues. Desktop OSes are intrinsically more complicated than, say, a notes app.
But if you think people don’t run into issues on Windows all the time, or that no time was spent learning how windows works, then you’re out of your mind.
Mint is objectively easier to use than Windows. I’m not telling you to use it. Use what you want. I’m just giving you the info.
i sWeAr WiNdOwS mAxImaLisTs jUsT rEpEaT “wIndOWs wOrKs pErFecTlY” oN LoOp hOpiNG tHat’LL mAkE iT tRuE
We’re not talking about complicated things that need learning. We’re talking about the fingerprint scanner not working in mint or the scrolling being a super sensitive default speed
If you need to dive into online forums to fix your os installation, instead of just going into the settings app, then it is not “objectively easier than windows”
Which settings app? Windows has multiple, for… reasons…
And let me get this straight, you’re saying people never search for assistance when things don’t work in Windows? Lmao
what maintenance? most of the peeps i have using it blindly are just automatically applying recommended updates.
Friend of mine has a System76 laptop and had to talk to their support about issues with the webcam on certain apps. It was fixed but they asked him to check
lsusb. This guy only knows the basics of the terminal from me having to teach him.And what would’ve Microsoft support said?
“Reinstall drivers, reboot, and pray it starts working!”
Troubleshooting Windows for non-tech people isn’t any easier in any way.
The windows environment, as f*d as it is, is the ONLY mental model they are capable of. I have a short list of very needy users who cannot remember their f’ing password. Any of them, much less that there are multiple passwords.
Every day it’s some random BS with email, or scroll bars or something that makes me think FFS why is everyone this incapable of grasping a simple web search??
I moved some of them to Apple because I’m not touching M$ with a ten-foot pole anymore. Oh god, the anguish I heard. The screams. The scroll bars just disappear!!! AAiiiiGhhhh! They close out windows and think that’s closing the program. “But I restarted it!” No you didn’t. They have no idea what desktops are, much less multiple ones. No C drive?? No C drive? complete catatonia. It’s never-ending.
Long story short, the entirety of the computer revolution (that was a thing we called it once, which was the style at the time) is very much just Windows for them. That’s it. If you can make a Linux system mirror exactly Windows 10 in every respect and - AND - run all of Microsoft’s products with no incursion of *nix-ism at all then they’ll be happy. Well, not happy. Not-always-crying-in-panic. Obviously, that’s never going to happen.
I’ve hated Microsoft for so long; I’ve long since given up on them ceasing to be a cancer on the modern world, it’s all I can do to just erase them from every corner of my computing experience where possible.
Oh, and then they tell me about some window with some warning text on it. My first question is: Who is asking? Is it something Windows is asking you? Is it some other app? Is it a fake ad on a website. Context matters a lot, and some people don’t seem to know that context even exists.
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And besides, Linux usually provides useful logs, so you don’t have to fumble in the dark.
And when you do get an error message, it’s usually descriptive. Like a generic permission denied then a file path to the file where there was an issue or something like that.
You get an error message in Windows and it’s usually something along the lines of 0xc000021a. Thank you, Microsoft. Very legible!
Difference for the average user is that there are 10^4 shops per square mile of Windows capable support shops in most places. Meanwhile, my local area has “that weird AI called Melpomene” for Linux support.
I’m not discounting System76’s support (hell to my friend Linux is hard, but rewarding), but I am saying that this sort of thing is still alien to the average consumer. I’ve seen university students not know what a command line is.
Yes, but if Windows breaks it’s your fault. If Linux breaks it’s Linux’s fault.
Or the inevitable “PopOS muted my audio and I had to dive into terminal to unmute myself” issue I run into every month or three. I am fine rolling my eyes and fixing it… most people are not.
Installing apps outside of the Pop Shop for instance. Getting something installed via terminal is a lot of ask of the average user; they just want things to work (and I am not inclined to be their forever support.)
linux is great for two types of people… those that just need a browser or libreoffice and could use even a livecd or reset-on-reboot kiosk mode type se;tup that’s been set up for them, and those that want to get their hands dirty.
for everyone else, it can really be a pain in the ass sometimes when something goes wrong. help is fragmented in even more ways than the distros themselves, and every third response is usually something along the lines of ‘google it’ (“i did, that’s how i got here”) or ‘rtfm’ (“what fucking manual?”–documentation is lacking for soooo many things) and then silence.
at least with windows you should already know going-in that ‘backup and reinstall’ is probably high-up at #3 on the list of things to try/do, after you search and scan a much larger pile of resources specific to windows and its (relatively few, by comparison) different versions.
This is a take I would have agreed with 10 years ago but not today.
There’s also the SteamDeck and gaming is a very valid use case now. I do admittedly like getting my hands dirty but I use Linux as a daily driver for school and home.
The forum culture has gotten a bit better. It used to be like that more often 10 years ago but now people seem more helpful. It also really depends on what you google. (E.g. my desktop crashed Linux help vs gnome crash error from logs) But you’re also expecting a lot of free support from the community. If you need support buy Linux from a company that offers support like System76, Steam, etc.
Ok, and you can also just backup and reinstall Linux?? In fact some distros automatic snapshots of your system get taken and you can roll back from the terminal, GUI, or bootloader.
The last one I just don’t get. Windows errors are cryptic hieroglyphics or UX’d to uselessness. At least I’m Linux it tells me what went wrong either on the screen or in logs. Even with visual bugs I’ve been able to find an exact bug report with the developers response and the version it will be fixed in after some Googling.
This, and persistent sound driver issues, are what ultimately drove me away after using Linux as my primary for a few years. Forums were also filled with shorthand and they wouldn’t tell you what to actually type into the fucking terminal. Can’t figure out what the shorthand means? Too bad, because nobody will tell you.
Totally agree, but with the caveat that if you have to support this user anwyay, bite the bullet and switch to Apple - at least they can still run Office and pretend it’s windows while still benefitting from simply restarting everything as a fix.
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My mom is running Fedora 38 on a T14 Gen 2. It’s much more reliable than her old macbook, but we did have some issues with the sound driver, and the fingerprint reader is like Sex Panther cologne - 60% of the time, it works every time.
Why would you swap a MacBook to Linux?
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Makes sense!