- cross-posted to:
- energy@slrpnk.net
- cross-posted to:
- energy@slrpnk.net
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Grid storage only. But still cool
More grid storage means more capacity for renewables.
Exactly. Renewables plus grid storage is the way to ditch fossil fuels
You say that as if solving grid storage wasn’t one of the most important problems humanity faces right now.
You will almost certainly see sodium-ion in cars. The Na batts already manufactured have a similar Wh/kg to Li batteries in EVs today. That’s because Li has progressed further, and it takes a few years for new batteries to go into actual EVs. Manufactures don’t necessarily use the top of the line batts, either, for cost or availability reasons.
If you feel a VW id.4 or a Hyundai Ioniq has sufficient range right now (or could have sufficient range if charging infrastructure was a better), then an Na batt will also be good enough. It’ll also be cheaper. Those cars come off the assembly line with Li batts that are similar to the 160 Wh/kg that Na batts out of CATL were doing in 2021.
I admire your optimism and I hope you’re correct. At least with the little “city commuters” it probably even makes sense. But lithium battery tech also continues to improve – so catching up with 2021 is great, but the goalposts keep moving.
There will be an absolute limit coming from physics and chemistry, and lithium is a smaller, lighter ion. In the theoretical limits, it will absolutely be the winner.
But from a practical perspective, if Na-ion becomes light enough and (more importantly) cheap enough, it will probably win the economic game in the longer term.
Plus we can make Na-ion batteries in-situ elsewhere in the solar system without having to first finding concentrations of lithium – so high tech space industry stuff will likely more towards Na-ion, which will fund some development.
Goalposts keep moving, but perhaps not in a useful way. A 10,000 Wh/kg battery would be amazing, but EVs will get along fine with 160 Wh/kg. Especially if they’re cheap and made of abundant materials.
We’re desperately in need of low-cost grid storage for all our high capacity renewables. Especially down in spots like Texas, where wind energy will send prices into the negatives for a few hours a day, then natural gas collusion jacks prices up into the quadruple digits, an industrial scale battery system would flatten the price curve.
I concur. The problem with Texas is that regulators and legislators are in the pockets of said natural gas companies. So it’s very likely to occur in the places that don’t need it before it occurs in Texas. Get on it, Vermont! ;)
These will be useless for EV’s, but great for storage. They aren’t energy dense enough for what the EV market needs.
Samsungs solid state EV batteries are currently the only positive step towards EV replacement and production vehicles are set to start rolling out around 2027. They’re supposed to be lighter, last more cycles, charge faster, more energy dense, and safer than current EV liquid lithium batteries.
The sodium ion batteries will be great for large scale solar storage and house/business solar storage. They should let someone build a solar powered house that could continuously run completely off grid without needing to use lithium batteries that would need replaced every 10 to 15 years.
I can’t remember the name but I’m pretty sure some Chinese EV manufacturer has started to make EVs with salt batteries already.
BYD. Seagull or the seal. Can’t remember which one.
they’re used in busses afaik. Which makes sense.
Sodium ion batteries on the market right now are about the same weight density as lithium poly batteries from a few years ago. It takes a few years for a newly manufactured battery to find its way into actual EV models. That means the newer sodium batteries have about the same performance as batteries in EVs right now. They’re also cheaper and are made of more abundant materials.
Don’t write off sodium batts in cars too quickly.
The factory making these is still like 6 years out. The ones on market are like 65% energy dense, and lithium tech has only gained a few percent a year, so I don’t know where you’re getting your thoughts from. For EV’S, sodium ion is going to be a far shot behind solid state. By the time sodium could catch up to being close to today’s lithium batts, solid state will be far cheaper and have a huge power density advantage.
Volkswagen id4 today has a battery of 168 wh/kg:
https://www.batterydesign.net/vw-id-4-82kwh-battery/
CATL launched a 160 wh/kg sodium battery in 2021:
https://www.catl.com/en/news/665.html
They are already gearing up for production of 200 wh/kg sodium batteries, and in talks with automakers about it:
https://www.electrive.com/2024/05/06/catl-gears-up-for-next-gen-sibs-and-global-licensing/
If the id4 on sale now has enough range for you, then a sodium ion version will give the same while being cheaper and having fewer fire concerns. Solid state lithium will be nice, but expect them in more expensive models.
Even if they manage to “gear up” and make it to 200 wh/kg, that’s years away and TODAY lithium EV batts are hitting 270 wh/kg. 35% more energy dense.
And you’ll spend more money to get that. Not every EV needs the most capacity out there.
If your ev isn’t good enough for a road trip, that means for like 90% of you, you have to own another vehicle.
I have such an ev right now that’s in line with the numbers we’re talking about here. It’s good enough for a road trip. We’re trying to sell our only ICE car now because we’re not using it.
and lithium tech has only gained a few percent a year
isn’t it about an 8% improvement year on year historically?
I double checked. It looks like about 5% per year.
yeah that seems about right, it’s still pretty good though.
Over 10 years that’s 50% more capacity compared to older cells.
It’s actually been about 8% in recent years, but historically 5%. We’ll see which one holds, but either compounds to doubling capacity in shorter time than you might think.
yeah, you would expect it to slow down over time, given the ever encroaching theoretical limits of technology, but obviously that depends on how far that is from here. Otherwise you generally expect to see an increase likely proportional to the amount of sold product (more R&D funding) as well as a function of competition, which is pretty high right now.
Why not? From what I’ve seen, they’re about 75% as energy dense as lithium, and a lot cheaper. So if the Chevy Bolt gets 200-250 miles range on lithium batteries, I’d expect 150+ miles w/ sodium-ion, which is plenty for my commute. If the battery costs half as much and lasts 5-10 years, I’d buy that to replace my commuter in a heartbeat. Give me a commuter at $15-20k w/ 150 miles range and I’ll buy.
these batteries are a lot cheaper, and a lot more cycle resistant, which is what you primarily do for stationary storage, i think they’re probably safer as well?
It would make some EVs cheaper, but they would have less range, and it’s probably a little redundant considering you could just use less lithium ion batts instead.
Like the commenter said, we should be focusing on the solid state batts that samsung is fucking with, those are have REAL potential to be significantly better for EVs.
A solid state battery would likely be able to replace my family car, but I don’t need that for a commuter, I just need the battery to be cheaply replaceable and enough range to get to work and back. I think we should be looking at both options.
i mean sure, personally i doubt it’ll happen, im assuming they’re focusing on developing better battery tech first and foremost, though im guessing sodium ions would probably make their way into EVs eventually.
They already are… in China. I’m saying we should do that here in the US. We have the battery plant, so let’s put them in some inexpensive cars to replace commuters.
i dont think we’ve even broken ground on a sodium ion plant let alone making and production testing batteries for the market to begin with. I’ve got nothing aginst it, and EV manufacturers are probably going to do it, but whatever
Also you can buy a used prius for pretty cheap? The batteries aren’t that expensive to replace if they go bad/are bad.
Yup, and I currently drive a Prius. I’m looking at used Bolts ($13-15k used), but I’m a little worried about fire risk (it’ll be parked in my attached garage) and battery repair is going to be super expensive. A new sodium ion EV that’s much cheaper (say, $15-20k) would be attractive, but I’m definitely not paying >$30k for a commuter.
How can a battery be solid state, I don’t understand what that means in this context.
You basically replace the liquid electrolyte with a solid one. Wikipedia article about it.
Here’s an article about Samsung’s battery, and I’m sure we’ll hear a lot more about them in the coming years.
current lithium batts are a submersion layer stacking inside of an electrolyte, solid state removes the electrolyte for a “dry” approach, which is in this case, solid state. I’m guessing it’s referring to the movement of ions (is that the right term?) through the electrolyte, which is a mechanical process (technically) but i don’t know fuck about battery chemistry so dont quote me.
Explain that to the average car buyer who sees the lower number and rules it out.
If they also see a lower price, they’ll be more interested.
And this doesn’t need to appeal to every car buyer, there’s a market for budget-friendly cars with a narrow use-case. 150 miles is plenty for a second car, and would probably not appeal to people looking for a primary car, whereas 250 miles kind of bridges that gap. Segment the market and it should do well.
These would also make bank as fleet vehicles for local deliveries or shuttle services.
Lower price and longer life.
50,000 complete cycles. That’s 136 years of complete empty to complete full. Most of these will outlast their mounting hardware.
Sure. Drop them in budget cars, and when the cars are ready to EOL, move the batteries to energy storage.
Yep. And decommissioning time? The sodium is all recyclable without major effort, and the Prussian Blue analogs can be discarded.
or you could also just, make a hybrid, which solves all of the problems, though it’s a little more complex.
It’s a lot more complex, and would drive up the price a lot. A simple EV with limited range has a lot of value for cases that only need short range.
i guess so but whats your argument for not just buying an older used prius instead
That’s what I currently drive. It would be nice to never have to fill up gas again.
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As long as the locals benefit and the environment doesn’t get destroyed ( which polluters frequently get away with due to the Republican legislature, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Dan_River_coal_ash_spill ) this is a sensible place to put industry. It is more stable environmentally than many other regions in the country where expensive industrial infrastructure is being placed (like the Southwest), has available labor for manufacturing, and is well connected to transportation.
Everything bad you expect is going to happen.
Sodium-ion batteries are gaining attention as a potential alternative to lithium-ion batteries for EVs, mainly due to their cost-effectiveness and abundance of raw materials. Sodium is more readily available and less expensive than lithium, making it an attractive prospect for scaling up EV production.
I don’t know why they said this — they really aren’t a viable alternative for weight-sensitive contexts at all. Their density is only abut 60% that of Li-ion batteries, and that isn’t even getting into solid-state Li batteries which are even more dense. If weight isn’t an issue, like for home or grid backup storage, they’re fine. For cars or bikes, not so much.
There is already a Chinese EV that uses a sodium ion battery, the JMEV EV3.
It’s a tradeoff of range vs price. The EV3 only has 155 miles of range, but thanks in part to its sodium ion battery it costs only $9220 new. Which is a price that will probably drop even more as more sodium ion plants come online and economies of scale kick in.
EDIT: even if your commute is 40 minutes long, driving 60 MPH the entire way, that range is enough to get you to work and back using a little more than half your charge. Given that it’s also generally cheaper to charge an EV than pump gas, and there’s less maintenance costs, I think there’s absolutely a market for such a car.
I’d be able to drive that to and from work 15x before charging.
The volumetric energy density is 60% of lithium ion batteries, but the energy density per kg is more like 75% since the batteries are lighter. Assuming that scales to the ev range, that’s probably sufficient for a lot of use cases.
EVs are already too heavy and wear tires out quickly. The upcoming solid state batteries are what will go into future EVs. Samsung is producing them right now and they’re currently set to start going in higher end E vehicles in 2027. At best the sodium ion batts may be good for hybrids.
You’re forgetting that these batteries are going to be cheap because the compounds needed are readily available. This tech is not going to replace every lithium battery out there, but it’s going to give consumers another, more economic choice vs lithium. Plus it’s a safer technology than lithium.
They’ll be cheap, but weighing more and taking up more space is not that viable of a trade off. Except for hybrid vehicles.
I could see it being useful for semi trucks where volume isn’t as much of an issue, especially if the batteries are hanging under the trailer.
Too much weight. Thus far, electric semi trucks aren’t viable outside of shorter range delivery fleets.
I don’t know why they said this — they really aren’t a viable alternative for weight-sensitive contexts at all. Their density is only abut 60% that of Li-ion batteries, and that isn’t even getting into solid-state Li batteries which are even more dense. If weight isn’t an issue, like for home or grid backup storage, they’re fine. For cars or bikes, not so much.
Your explanation is valid for vehicles that have 100% of their battery be something other than Sodium based, and also have a use case that requires long or intermediate range. That isn’t all use cases. Vehicles that drive a lot, but never cover much distance would still be valid use cases for 100% sodium. 100% Sodium Ion powered EVs started rolling off assembly lines in Dec of 2023. Alternatively 100% Sodium Ion could also be for things like fork lifts or Semi trucks that move storage containers from a cargo ship to a storage location within a mile and repeat this trip dozens of times a day.
Other use cases would be where a car has some sodium batteries and some lithium based ones. The sodium batteries could serve most of the “wear and tear” of short trips, with a second smaller lithium back available to augment overall range which is not used as often.
Other use cases would be where a car has some sodium batteries and some lithium based ones. The sodium batteries could serve most of the “wear and tear” of short trips, with a second smaller lithium back available to augment overall range which is not used as often.
This is a neat idea, but wouldn’t solid-state lithium be far, far better for that purpose?
AFAIK SS lithium have huge price tag, at least for now.
Not really — portable batteries are already on the market and aren’t that much more than conventional Li-ion.
Are they? Good to hear. However Samsung is starting mass production for EVs and they are targeting initially the most expensive segment. But let’s see once they start producing them.
Sodium batteries are a lot cheaper, and the materials are easier to come by
Unless we get to the point where we do battery swaps in cars instead of charging. Just pull the fusion core and pop in a charged one. If we can do it for propane tanks we can do it for cars. Run out of “gas”? Tow company can bring you either a full charge or a smaller battery to get you to the next swap point. Most likely this will start with cross country trucks, the owners can have swap points or drive out a battery for a truck that ran out early.
Damn you, I miss Tom’s videos
We all do ;(
He’s definitely earned a break though :')
Absolutely
cool to see that we’re finally getting local production of these things here in the US.
I’m going to assume the community gets poison while the factory cranks out batteries, and delivers few jobs or taxes?
I’m also going to assume the community recognizes this but hopes to improve their area with new education and other investment? Or a lot of people were bribed ?
Am I wrong ?
A small town near out together an incentive package for a wind farm that was shopping itself around the country.
They imminent-domained hundreds of tiny plots of land from local farmers so a billion-dollar wind installation could go up without paying the farmers, and in return the city received $200,000 it used to paint a school, and the peoject it created a whopping 2 full-time jobs after construction was completed.
And the mayor acted like it was a victory.
if you think factories are bad wait until you find out what amazon gets away with. They can literally break fire code because nobody cares enough to do anything about having the worlds biggest retailer warehousing in your county/state.
Of course. The pork industry in NC is exactly the same. Tobacco as well.
NC has a strong Republican majority in the government with a fairly weak Democrat governor. They make bad decisions. I’m not sad I left.
Yeah, probably wrong. There’s not a bunch of third party info on the environmental impact this factory will have, and no evidence anyone was bribed. If it makes you feel better, this isn’t their first factory and I couldn’t find any negative news about that factory either. Community leaders were supportive though, and a bunch of jobs were created.
I did find some articles about the positive environmental impact sodium batteries have from production, to relative ease of recycling, if that makes you feel better.
An issue near me: a major plant is fined every time they exceed emission limits and those fines go back to the community.
Yes.
Great, finally some Sodium batteries that are not made in China.
Hopefully this time NC’s gridscale battery factory wont go bankrupt when the Russian oligarchs founders take the money and run. https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article167970747.html
Archive: https://archive.ph/JUBRF
“It’s facilitated in part by a Job Development Investment Grant from the North Carolina Department of Commerce, which gives cash grants directly to a company when it creates jobs and invests in the state.”
I wonder if this makes it kind of like, although not equivalent to, a project labor agreement. I know North Carolina is a right to work state.
It would be nice for there to be union presence on a job this large. However small the chances of that may be.
How do you create gigawatts of batteries. Wouldn’t it be something more like gigawatt-hours of batteries?
Yeah, it’s probably GWh, W and Wh are frequently interchanged.
yes
Yeah you’re probably right.
Although the peak power you can withdraw from a battery is also an important factor, the energy capacity would be the expected size to be reported here.
Idk, sounds like another FoxConn lie to siphon off public funds and underdeliver.
Put up a shack, hire 10 people, pocket the remaining money, pay it to yourself in dividends and stock buybacks. Huzzah!
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It’s called healthy skepticism and it saves lives. By preparing for all worst case outcomes we can help prevent them all.
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It’s called healthy skepticism
Skepticism is healthy when you’re actually making a decision and you decide you need more information.
By preparing for all worst case outcomes
Are you actually making any preparations or are you just throwing out cynical assertions based on bad vibes?
If I had to make a decisions in this exact circumstance I sure as fuck wouldn’t write Natron a blank check for the state treasury. Yeah, I’m saying I want more information before I endorse this.
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