Let’s not cherrypick scenarios to try and pretend Linux is easier than Windows. Most normal people are nervous interacting with a GUI pop-up that gives them two options, never mind putting them into a terminal window where they could seriously fuck up their machine. What about clicking the download link on a webpage, clicking next a few times and having them software on your machine, compared to having to build something from GitHub (how many people here have never had to do that?).
This applies to pretty much all “Linux good, Win/MacOS bad” memes. I just assume that people either aren’t really serious about them and it’s just tongue in cheek, or they don’t have any contact with regular people.
I used to work as a(n assistant to the) sysadmin and the things I got called over never stopped to amaze. For instance, there was a case when software was updated on the work machines and I got called because some lady couldn’t use Adobe Acrobat. “It is asking me something, I don’t know what”. I come over and it’s just a TOS Accept/Decline window.
Some people do not understand computers to an extent that they can lock up in a state of confusion when a button has been moved 100px in any direction from its usual position.
Unless you have a system without a GUI, you don’t need to open a terminal in order to update or install stuff. There is a GUI for that. And no, you don’t need to build stuff from GitHub for normal user stuff…
I tried that on linux, it doesn’t work if you want to do more than browse the web and other basic stuff.
You can do some seriously advanced stuff on windows using only GUIs
We were talking about normal user stuff that normal users do, not “seriously advanced stuff”… And I agree that most normal users probably don’t want to use terminals because they are not familiar with them. But normal users probably don’t and shouldn’t do “seriously advanced stuff”, no?
Yes, if you are trying to do “serously advanced stuff” (whatever that means), chances are you will probably need a terminal (or a terminal will at least be easier), but you shouldn’t be doing “seriously advanced stuff” unless you know what you are doing anyway…
I just wanted to install steam, but it wasn’t in the package manager list.
Then I tried apt-get and that didnt work, I forgot why.
You don’t have to do seriously advanced stuff on linux to run into issues without using the terminal.
My point was, even if you actually do some advanced stuff on windows you still don’t have to use the terminal.
It’s not realistic that you don’t have to use the terminal on linux if you want to do any more than web browsing and some text editing, etc.
That doesn’t mean that linux is bad, but let’s be realistic about what it is.
To install Steam on most distros with popular DE’s, you click the software store to open the software store. If Steam isn’t listed in the front page then just click the search box and start typing Steam.
When you see it, click the install button.
When it is done open it by clicking the Open button or pressing the Windows (or Super) key and type Steam. Click it when you see it.
Even if it is, for whatever reason, not part of the repository you have installed, you can still go on steam’s website and download the package from there… In other words, the worst case scenario is literally the same experience as you would have on windows…
I just wanted to install steam, but it wasn’t in the package manager list.
Maybe you used Debian, which only allows free software in their default repo? But then you won’t be able to just install it with apt either. But even if it is not in the repository, you could still go on steam website and download the package from there, so literally the same experience as on windows…
You don’t have to do seriously advanced stuff on linux to run into issues without using the terminal.
Like what?
It’s not realistic that you don’t have to use the terminal on linux if you want to do any more than web browsing and some text editing, etc.
10 years ago, or maybe even 5 years ago, I would have agreed with you. Not anymore though, not if you use a half-way beginner friendly distro…
Yup, it was debian. I think I tried adding another repo, but gave up before I got it to work. I didn’t try to just download the file, because I had done that before and all I could do is extract whatever is inside the file, but not install it.
It was around 2 years ago, maybe Linux has gotten that much more user friendly in the last two years, but I doubt it.
That experience is highly dependent on the Linux distro you’re using. Steam comes preinstalled on gaming-centric distros like Nobara or Pop!_OS. More “general purpose” distros like Mint or Ubuntu might require adding an apt repository before you can install steam from their GUI package managers, but adding an apt repo can be easily accomplished with a GUI as well.
Basically, if there’s no guide for installing steam for a given distro, or the process of installing steam is more than a couple easy steps, that specific distro probably isn’t well suited to run steam.
Weird, I would expect Steam to be in the Ubuntu repos (assuming that’s what you were using, since you mention apt), but maybe not. As for apt, or apt-get, they are just the terminal equivalent of the GUI package manager (synaptic? it’s been a minute since I ran ubuntu), so if something isn’t in the repos, apt at the terminal won’t find it either. If it’s not in the repos, you should be able to download and install steam from the website just like you would in windows. It gives you a .deb file which will launch just like an executable installer in Ubuntu. But to your point, yes, sometimes things in linux take a little extra thinking to get to work. Getting accustomed to the way Linux works can help overcome hiccups like this. Windows has many quirks as well, it’s just that if you use WIndows often you know your way around them.
Not using the terminal is like buying a race car and not using the higher gears. I mean, you can, but what’s the fucking point?
I have a lot more fun in my performance car avoiding the top gears, actually. Like after 3rd im already losing my licence on the spot and getting bent over by the law, higher gears are just that but worse.
Ok so what exactly is the big advantage you get when installing updates from a terminal as opposed to installing it via GUI? If I read your analogy, one could think it is faster, but I don’t think it is.
- update:
Hotkey open terminal -> sudo apt update/upgrade -> done. Never had to touch the stupid mouse. Same with all sorts of tasks.
- email:
Hotkey open terminal -> neomutt -> quickly sort/delete/reply -> done. Never had to touch the stupid mouse.
- file transfer:
Hotkey open terminal -> scp <info> -> done. Never touched the mouse.
and so on.
If you like using a GUI, use a GUI. I’m not saying you can’t, but you sure are missing out on a lot of command-line awesomeness. I’ve never heard anyone argue that a GUI is quicker than command line, just more comfortable for a lot of neophytes. I mean, sure, gaming, browsing the web, graphics stuff, GUIs are great, if not essential.
On my private PC, I’m using a GUI/Mouse anyway (browsing, gaming, etc). I have to do 2 clicks to update.
If I use terminal, I have to open terminal, then I have to either login as root or run update as sudo, which means I have to authenticate.
If I already have an open terminal, I might be faster. Otherwise, I’m about as fast as with GUI. In any way, there is no significant benefit to updating software via terminal vs GUI, especially if you are an enduser who does not have significant experience with shells…
For many tasks I agree that a shell is better and faster once you have basic knowledge for it, but it is a reality that many basic users are not used to using a shell or are even scared to use one… And at least since I’ve been use Fedora a couple of years ago, I think using a GUI for basic stuff is reasonably viable without having a significantly worse experience and not comparable with “not using all gears in a car”.
Most normal people are nervous interacting with a GUI pop-up that gives them two options, never mind putting them into a terminal window where they could seriously fuck up their machine
Maybe this is a problem that we should be addressing, rather than just making technology more of a black box, and raising generations of people who have no fucking concept of how any of it works.
If you have a driver’s license, do you know a car works besides the basic maintenance that is checking your oil and keeping the tires inflated? Some people don’t even do that last one, while it’s a thing you should check regularly.
I think it’s a good thing the general public is able to use a computer without knowing the inner workings, but it also shouldn’t be obscured from them if they want to know/learn.
Lots of people don’t care enough to learn
Those that do probably don’t go to linuxmemes though.
But this is the classic Linux user mentality; Linux shouldn’t get easier, users should get smarter.
If computers can be easier to use then why should people instead sacrifice loads of time learning how to operate them? Most people have other things to be getting on with.
been using linux for a few years both on servers and my pc and I never had to build sth myself
Compiling from GitHub is cherry picking the worst case especially for “most normal people” and frankly they should be using the software store GUI in their DE to install and update software with nice easy buttons to click.
Frankly software management for a normal person generally is easier on Linux than it is on Windows for stuff made to run on Linux.
But don’t worry someone will respond with nvidia’s shitty proprietary drivers.
Most normal people are nervous interacting with a GUI pop-up that gives them two options
Sadly no. They should be nervous if it’s about making changes to their system. In reality however Windows conditioned them to just click the button labeled “Yes” or “Okay” without even reading the pop-up in the first place.
Let’s also not conflate “ease” with historical behavior.
Taking previous experience out of the equation, it is easier to type
apt upgradeand reboot to update your entire system than to click through 300 times in the system and multiple apps with reboots.That is a fact.
You don’t even need the terminal. There is a interface to update if you are using a DE.
Like 3 clicks lol
Huh? 3 clicks to update Windows, Adobe, Office, that random text editor, VSCode, Steam, on and on and on…
- Open powershell
- Type Winget upgrade --all
- Hit enter.
It’s the same as most Linux distros, just different commands / syntax.
Cool, if this works like how you are implying, then this is going to make my life a bit easier.
Huh, looks like that would do my list above except the Adobe Suite. A shame that’s not on by default. Good info.
Let’s not cherrypick scenarios to try and pretend Linux is easier than Windows. Most normal people are…
Let’s not cherry pick users then. I don’t care about your normal users. My experience is better on Linux.
Let’s not cherry pick users then. I don’t care about your normal users. My experience is better on Linux.
When you make fun of something that really isn’t an issue it just makes your side look worse. Windows has real problems, but installing shit ain’t it.
My dad can install anything on windows with clicks, he can’t do shit with a terminal.
I’m a power user and love GUIs. I’ll use git desktop all day everyday, instead of typing shit in a command line. It’s one button press vs typing paths and hoping you don’t misspell shit.
I don’t really get the whole command line fetish, there are no extra points in life for doing things the harder way.
Ah, yes. I also love it when I search for firefox on my new PC with Edge (without adblocker) and get sponsored malware in the results.
I still use windows but I think installing software on Linux is way more convenient. Especially with the AUR.
The GUI app centers on most distros are quite usable without command line wizardry and reduces the risk of dodgey download sites
Power users are just regular users with an ego.
GUI is like fast food, sure you can eat it and enjoy it, and you will live to see another day, but it’s inferior in every way to everything else. The real problem is that people start acting like fast food is the default food and start looking at people who eat raw or cook their own food or pay for food at a restaurant as being full of themselves.
There are countless real advantages to CLI over GUI, but allowing people to use their computer effectively by fumbling around isn’t one of them.
Yay -S app is hard? Or apt install app? Or flatpak?
Being used to a habit doesnt make the habit the default way. Humans adapt quickly.
All of that is harder than a double click, yes.
There are not msny apps installed in windows using only a single double click…
Ok i double clicked on my desktop, nothing happened. Can you elaborate?
You’ll figure it out. You seem very bright.
You don’t
Pot calling kettle black.
You are as clever as you are wise.
You can double click on pamac and synaptic too. You just seem slow. Double click on App images too. You just giving yourselves a title of " power user" doesn’t make you one.
apt install funbox funbox not found apt install fun-box fun-box not found apt install openfunbox openfunbox not found Google openfunbox “use apt install open-funboxxx”
That is way yay is superior 🤓
A simple analogy is, would you rather have keyboard with a-z and symbols you can use to build words/sentences, or would you want a wordlist you can scroll and click, while expanding words in groups, and having to find non-frequent words with a lot of difficulty to make up sentences.
Command line use is harder if you come from gui. But the main use case of command line are:
- automation: anything you can do in a command line, can be copied in a script,
- uniformity: every software now has almost the same format of use,
- flexibility: gui almost always has less options than command line, and many times options are hidden within a lot of tabs and options.
- Auto complete: whenever someone complains about terminal being hard to use and spelling mistakes I think about this. I think many people that come from GUI don’t know about auto-completion on terminal. It’s easy to see which options are available, easy to choose files, wildcards for multiple files, and all that
- piping: command line allows you to chain one command with another. You have a command to list all your music files, chain that with a search command to search files within them. Now if you need to search in a python code, you use the same search command, just different command to read the file. You basically have lego blocks (old ones) that can be used to make anything.
I can understand people being afraid of command line when they start, but I think many people come with biases and don’t use good terminal and other tools to make things easier.
I can’t remember the last time I got a DLL error on my Windows laptop, honestly. I don’t think that’s ever happened on my current computer.
IDK, but I more often had issues with installing apps to Linux than to Windows, usually dependency-hell related ones, but once I had trouble enabling snap on Linux Mint.
Mint activity tries to protect you from using snap.
but once I had trouble enabling snap on Linux Mint.
Seems like a win
If you’re enabling Snap on Mint, you might as well install Ubuntu.
I haven’t had a DLL issue in Windows in like 20 years.
I did
I didn’t
I haven’t had to restart to install / uninstall anything since WinME.
Found the guy who never updated his windows since ME
What? An OS install isn’t the same as installing / uninstalling something. Xp, 7, 10… I don’t restart when installing shit.
So you never did windows update
That’s not installing something; that’s fundamentally changing the OS… what is happening in this thread?!
Which is exactly what you can do in linux, live patch the kernel and carry on
Only thing I can think of is installations that include drivers. And even then, not all of them.
Anything that hooks into explorer.exe tends to require windows to reboot.
Or just kill explorer and let it instantly reload.
If you kill explorer.exe manually it doesn’t respawn. You have to star the process yourself again.
Unless something changed in the past year.
Nah it’s auto restarting since at least windows 10 (2015)
No. It’s not. I spun up a vm and killed explorer.exe. How long should I be waiting? Cause I"m several minutes in and explorer hasn’t restarted itself yet. Also tested it on my VR computer (only non-linux physical machine in the house).
Here I’ll even stream it for you. <removed>. I kill the process at basically 16:00(MST) it’s been 5 minutes now and the stream is going.
Edit: Over 19 minutes now… Still waiting for it to restart…
Edit2: Over an hour now… Still waiting for it to automatically restart. BTW the machine is windows 11. Latest patch/update.
Edit3: pulling the stream. Ran it for over 4 hours. The point is proven. It doesn’t restart itself.
This was made by someone who has never used either
Eh, Windows complaints tend to get pretty hyperbolic much of the time. It’s slow and annoying but I’ve always worked with it
But the description of the Linux update process matches my experience with mint, pretty much. I even use the GUI update utility because it will put a little icon in the bottom corner of the screen. It’s quick even if I’m using a program that’s going an update, and if the kernel gets updated it’s just like “hey remember to reboot buddy!”
Besides missing dependencies or repositories for more nice software this kinda closely matches my experience though.
(Ignoring winget, becaust it is not really the mainstream way to install windows software)
What is your specific issue with this?
Mostly that this hasn’t been my experience with Windows for like 20 years.
They might as well bitch about dropping their punch cards.
I still (have to) download scetchy executables on Windows when I want to install most programms, while on debian I can install most programs via apt and a few repositories. Even when it’s not a standard repo I still prefer it over random executables because while the security is just as bad at least I get updates without having to open the program itself.
But what resonated with me most have been the restarts for updates. Happened way to often that I wanted to stop working but cant just shut down windows without updates and the accompanying reboots. (If I don’t check up in between to decrypt the disk on startups it’ll just sit there and run out the battery and I have to do the restarts on the next workday). On debian I just klick the power button, it hibernates (or I shut it down if I’m in the mood) and os updates are completely seperate from that.
What sketchy executables are you downloading?
What makes downloading steam from valve more sketchy than allowing a Linux repo to run arbitrary code as root on your machine for every single one of thousands of pieces of software maintained by strangers?
All software is maintained by strangers.
Some software websites just look sketchy but aren’t, which makes it harder for people to filter out the actual sketchy ones. That’s just the reality. Jokes about download pages with 4 download buttons also didn’t come falling out of the sky.
Literally
My desktop/laptop experience for both is as follows:
Windows update, at least since the inception of the concept has never required me to go to a browser (unless you count w98 “everything is a website” concept for the desktop or the far in between instances were a PC was offline/having issues and you need to download update packages)
It also updated windows applications (ie office) but yeah it never intended to upgrade other stuff, all other software had their own auto update check
I’ll concede the restart because yeah it does all for that
But yeah Linux install is not without issues, and I’ll just remind everyone of how difficult it was/is to install a component driver when it’s not automatically found (wifi cards, disk controllers, and Realtek drivers anyone?)
Yeah it does update your apps, as long as you have the repos, and restart wise I distinctively remember that you do need to do restarts after updates, be it major distro or not.
Simple commands? I’ll concede that, as long as we remember the average Linux user is used to a less user friendly experience. Complain ask you want but for the average user, windows update experience works
Thankfully I don’t need to deal with all that stuff now
I maintain a bunch of PC’s and 2 of them won’t update anymore with some vague error code that only has a microsoft community forum post as search result. I’ll get it fixed, but Windows update is not quite flawless and a non tech person would be lost at this point.
People seem to be having a hard time grasping that most of the time it works great on both Windows and Linux. Majority of people will have a solid experience. But on both platforms, when things go to shit, you need to get your hands dirty. And with that final thought, I like to add that because of it’s openness, is usually easier to troubleshoot an issue on Linux because it doesn’t obscure what it’s doing unlike Windows (“Please wait…”, “Setting things up”, … dafuq u doin, it says 100%, is it doing anything still or is it hanging?). Windows’ vagueness has been a pet peeve of mine and it’s only getting worse. I’m perfectly ok shielding it by default, but give me a verbose option.
No restart require on Linux is a joke, right? Because I get updates that require restarts as often as I get them on Windows when updating Mint.
Unless you’re updating the kernel itself, there is little chance you actually need to reboot your machine. Just restarting whatever service or application you’re using should do the trick.
Just following the update manager instructions
You do you, it can’t hurt to reboot and work on a fresh restart. But if for some reasons you need to keep your machine up, you’ll know it is less of a problem than on windows typically
Kde neon made me reboot Everytime it updated. Turns out there was a setting I could disable. Afterwards I was never bugged about rebooting.
Used discover for updates
Maybe you have such a setting?
Even with kernel updates, you can use something like ksplice or kpatch to update it without rebooting. It’s usually only used on servers though.
And on some distros you can also just reload the kernel without rebooting
Yeah, but you’re going to pay for that.
Not necessarily, you can use
kexecYeah, when you use Arch, you may not pay in money, but you are going to pay, lol.
That’s just a doc, kexec is also available on Fedora, Debian, Centos, etc.
Besides a kernel update… Which one?
Honest question, as I usually just restart to be sure I haven’t missed to restart a service or something, but theoretically I could restart every program and service, that got updated.
Maybe Mint is very conservative here…
Fedora requiers them all the time. Sometimes there is a driver update in there.
they’re not required, only the update manager thing wants you to. if you update via dnf you don’t need to restart 90% of the time
Probably driver update, like nvidia?
Ah yeah, mostly kernel module updates go along with a kernel update. But you are right, yeah.
Although, should be possible to just reload the module and restart X/Wayland, no?
Practically speaking, restarting is easier anyway.
I don’t know about all the arguing and snark, but… I’ve been using Ubuntu (laugh it up) on my work laptop for the last 3ish years, and the vast majority of the time it really is “click install updates. wait 2 minutes. ok every program on your computer is up to date, just don’t forget to restart Firefox”. Can’t think of a time where updating sucked. Sometimes I even go through the terminal just because it makes me feel cool to be a hackerman.
I dread updating my windows pc at home. Cuts into my WoW time too much.
I’ve switched over a year ago and that’s the thing that, looking back, sticks out to me the most as well. It’s just insane that practically every application I used had its own update routine. Lesser used apps I had to update every single time before using them. Just constant interruptions everywhere.
Winget is a step in the right directions, but it still has to build upon and work around that same shaky foundation, and it shows.
I can’t laugh it up as I use Ubuntu with a K.
Open terminal
See whether the app is in my distro’s repos, flathub, or snapcraft (It’s not)
Go on the internet, search up the app’s name
Download the AppImage (might be a virus)
LibFuse2 is not installed (fuck me)
Install LibFuse2
Install Gearlever to integrate AppImage into my desktop
I can finally launch the app
Fuck, I hate AppImages so much. Never heard of gearlever, thanks i hope this helps a lot.
Edit: Ok Gearlever is pretty great! Now I can finally open Heroic normally. That pissed me off for so long.
> doesn’t use arch/nix
“why cant i find my package in the repos?”
Ah yes, downloading builds from unvetted third parties and running their installers as root. Truly the Linux way.
Clicking yes on the windows prompt for elevated rights for the installer to move things forward. Truly the Windows way.
People don’t even read the prompts anymore, clicking yes as soon as it appears. So much better.
Even if that’s needed, you can update apps w/o reboot usually (when sandboxed), and move opened files around (seriously wtf, Windows)…
When the hell would I need to update my Windows because of an app update? I only restart when there is a system update, which you have to do on Linux too if you want your kernel to stay up to date.
Well, it was what happened the last time I touched Windows in ‘22 (for work) – maybe a policy thing that a corporate app had elevated access and that’s why it forced a reboot on me for (some of the) “regular” app updates?
That’s more likely.
Good to challenge misconceptions regularly, so thank you! :D
On that topic… I assume not being able to move opened files (my “go-to” use case was a PDF in Acrobat) is still unfixed though, right? Seems like that’d require a major OS and applications change to be made possible.
Yes, true.
The whole “OS update when I want an app update” is because of how dependencies work on Linux. A library is installed once and referenced by any app that wants to use it. This way, an update in the library benefits all apps using it, as bugs het fixed. Also less storage is used when the one library is used by many apps.
Windows programs keep their own versions of a library and hard link to that one. That makes the app more flexible. You can copy the app and it’s dependencies around and it will keep working. In this scenario multiple copies/versions of the same library can exist in the system, which takes more space.
Of course there is some nuance. Both operating systems can have/use shared or hard linked libraries, but this is the general gist of it.
What the actual fuck are you smoking?
At least update this meme to the 2010s if you won’t go to the 2020s
Edge (Microsoft browser) thinks the Microsoft Teams exe installer FROM MICROSOFT SERVER is malware, no joke.
It is.
Broken clock and all that
I like how you specified “Microsoft browser” 😏
Not to be confused with Edge, the non-Microsoft browser! /s
You never know who might Edge on the web
The Windows updating experience, both the system and apps via the Microsoft Store is so fucking bad it’s unbelievable. Shit just stops working all the time, updates fail, grinds the whole system to a halt etc.
For several years now I’ve been unable to update apps in the Microsoft store in one go, I have to open it, click “get updates” and the circular progression bar goes to about 1/5 and then just stops. So I have to close the app, wait a few minutes, open it again and then press the “play” button for every single app that has updates for the download to actually start, nothing else works. It’s been the same for Windows 10 and 11 across four different computers.
There was a Windows 10 update several months ago, might even have been last year that just failed for a ton of people and it took months before it was fixed.
That’s actually a major reason I switched to linux. Windows security update kept failing with no solution for like 6mos. Afaik there is still no solution.
I think mixing app and system dependencies is not the best idea, and Linux desktop is still fighting its impact.
When all the apps on a consumer laptop is expected to depend on the same dependencies, the system likely run into dependency hell, which means many apps needs to be downgraded in order to keep older apps working.
This mixture of system dependency and app dependency also prevents users to use the the latest version of an app on a hyper stable base system.
Flatpak basically aim to solve this problem, where each app chooses their own dependencies, so you don’t need to downgrade all your app just because one app depends on python 2.7.
I’m preparing for a new computer build and I have some questions. I’m feeling really scorned by Windows 11 and its incompatibility with my current hardware as well as the overall sense of that my privacy is being invaded. I’m not super familiar with linux, but I have messed around with various distros.
The build I’m planning to put together will likely use an AMD processor, but I’m uncertain about the GPU (definitely AMD or Nvidia). With my current build, RX 480 and i5-6500 I have found that in recent years I get massive artifacts in relatively old games such as Planetside 2 and Path of Exile (I also play Magic Arena quite a bit, but haven’t experienced any issues there). I even get screen tearing when watching youtube or amazon prime. It’s possible that my card is just dying, but considering that I don’t consistently see these issues across multiple applications I feel like it might be a driver issue.
I’d really like feedback and to know more about Linux gaming (especially with the games mentioned) as well as experience with AMD, Nvidia, and Intel hardware.
Thanks to anyone who responds.
In my experience, gaming worked great on Linux Mint. Overall, you may encounter issues with online gaming but only because the servers will see you’re using Linux and decide you must be cheating. Not really an issue with Linux, more an issue with the devs not doing a proper job.
ProtonDB is a good resource to understand what games run well on Linux and what issues you may encounter.
Oh wow, that cheating bit is interesting and something I would not have thought of. The games I play are prominently online, do you know if this is an issue with them?
Some games will just automatically block Linux machines in their anticheat engines. This site is one that tracks online playability of games on Linux machines, or more specifically if a game will automatically block you simply because you’re playing on Linux.
Omg you are a legend!
For me, nvidia with proprietary drivers works great, just make sure to have correct dependency packages installed for vulcan etc. (should just work in most distros if their recommended way of installing nvidia drivers is used)
You’re forgetting winget. It’s actually really good.
Winget sucks ass. Fails half of the time, lists way too much I did not install through Winget m, even had apps broken because of bad updates through Winget.
Never had these problems with scoop or chocolatey though.
lists way too much I did not install through Winget
That’s one of the features though. You can update apps via Winget even if you didn’t originally install them via Winget.
