When you’re talking to an open source dev, just remember that they are literally giving you their time for free, and they are people who don’t like to be treated poorly.
Edit: Just to be clear, I don’t mean any ill will toward the guy. He’s frustrated and he’s just taking it out in the wrong venue at the wrong people, but that doesn’t mean he’s a bad person.
Edit 2: The reinstalling he’s talking about is NPM. So just running npm install. It’s because he tried removing the node_modules directory, which is a reasonable thing to do, but it means you need to reinstall the modules with that command.
Me approaching Foss developer with bug: Pardon me, if you could grace this lowly worm with but a moment of your attention; I with me a bug report, and I believe I have found the section of code responsible. This inadequate being lacks the technical expertise to fix it and would be eternally indebted if you would turn your monumental skills upon its trifling problems. It would please me immensely if my paltry efforts were of some assistance.
This user: SOFTWARE NO WORK FUCK YOU!
And yet, this is the issue that gets a response instead of a silent closed offtopic wontfix.
Even if that was true effectiveness is never acceptable justification for cruelty
Never is a strong word when a collection of people all came together and agreed that Windows 10 should force updates.
Oh destroy property or whatever just don’t be cruel to people :p
You’ve clearly never worked with any psychopaths or narcissists. Often, pointed (though importantly, carefully offline and undocumented) cruelty is one of the only ways to effectively punch back and make people like that stop trying to fuck with you, because many people like that only really respond to threat dynamics. It’s not terribly common, and it’s not fun to do, but it definitely is warranted once in a blue moon.
Or even worse:
Thanks. Send a complete log of every software on your system, two videos of the bugs in action, and a detailed analysis of what you’ve had for breakfast.
The self entitlement in open-source these days never fails to astound me.
As a maintainer of open-source projects, I can confirm… It’s unforunate lol
And here I am anxious thinking I might offend the devs so I spend way too much time thinking what I’ve written is not rude
I’ve only had beef with a single dev ever. The maintainer of Prometheus, Brian Brazil, or whatever his name is. His attitude is so shitty towards people proposing actually good ideas that would push his product forward.
Yeah, I had the same experience with the devs of Pushbullet, after constructively suggesting a few ways they might be able to work with proxy servers, and all I got back was “Proxies are bad, mmmmk?”.
Fucken Peter Pan-level mentality.
This is also any and all Firefox support queries in a nutshell.
“OMG THIS BROWSER IS SO SHIT IT ALWAYS BREAKS OR GETS SLOW”… “No I have not changed anything in ˋabout:configˋ, and what I did is definitely not the source of the problem!”… “Yes with a reset config it works fine, I don’t know why, your browser is shit!”
And it’s always the same people who do “hardening” and “privacy enhancement”, having fuck all actual clue what they’re doing but thinking they’re oh so smart. 😑
This goes for inter-developer communication too. Be nice to one another. Someone just wants to help sometimes.
It depends on if the first guy is complaining about having to reinstall this specific software, or if the software borked his entire system to the point that he has to reinstall his entire OS. Because that happened to me once. But in the first scenario he is being a dick, and in the second one not so much.
I disagree, in neither scenario the open source dev owes him anything. You get to use and modify the software for free, but the flip side is you are entitled to nothing.
Malware is free too
Malware is not usually open source.
@appel@lemmy.ml not open source is usually malware
You are entitled to the truth. If the dev knows their software could have very damaging effects then that should be front and center on the software page.
Usually it is? But ultimately it’s still your own responsibility. You did not pay the dev, the dev does not ask you to pay them, ergo the dev owes you diddly squad.
Let’s be decent with each other, I don’t think my expectations are outrageous. I consider decent to make sure that the person that will use your software is aware of the dangers. And the best person to know those dangers is usually the dev.
You’re not entitled to a working computer once you execute a free program?
I guess you are not entitled free support once you execute a free program
I can’t say I’ve spoken directly to a dev in a situation like that, thankfully, but if that opinion were dominant, FOSS wouldn’t be a thing. Destroying your data or OS is kind of a no-no, whether you pay for the software or not. Obviously, you can’t sue the FOSS dev, but come on, it’d be amazingly shitty if they didn’t even try to help if there’s any evidence it’s their fault.
Do most open source projects damage your computer? It’s obvious they put effort into making usable programs.
Of course not!
The software is almost certainly provided as is, with risks assumed by the person installing it.
Still, I doubt any dev wants a catastrophic outcome and takes steps to avoid that or warn the end user if the code is more likely to bork something.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect the dev to do their best but it’s also not like you can sue them and win, most likely.
Honestly, no. It’s your job to vet the software you run. If it’s open source, you had every chance to make sure it wasn’t going to irreversibly break your system ahead of time.
Alternatively, you could pay money for a solution from a reputable company with support.
Alternatively, you could pay money for a solution from a reputable company with support.
and run the possibly even greater risk that it’ll fuck something up, since you probably can’t even look at their source
??? You quoted my comment with ‘reputable’ in it. You put a level of trust in anything you use. Reputable companies are unlikely to fuck your shit up with bad software. It happens - not trying to say it doesn’t - but again, you have to trust somewhere.
If that’s what you get from a paid product, why would you assume it’s better for a free product?
You’re implying that to even install the simplest of programs, I’d need to read and understannd many thousands of lines of code, starting with the FOSS project itself and then spidering out to every dependency. This speaks nothing of the fact that it may be written in multiple languages, some of which I am not familiar with, and even if I am, code can be written in ways that’s almost impossible to understand. This might take a week for a 200 line project.
Reminds me of when my employer said they were going to stop using open source software until a team had vetted it completely. Lol, once they talked to engineers that idea died immediately.
Who put the gun to your head and made you run the software though?
The response to this here is absolutely wild. I guess I should expect my machine to get wiped any moment
Whenever you choose to run a program that has full access to parts of your PC that may cause issues, you are the person who chose to do so.
Just run apps in a sandbox if you don’t want to risk having to reinstall your OS in a worst case scenario.
The developer owes you nothing.
That’s absolutely a ridiculous stance. Yes, you can personally go through everything, but there’s also searching around to find out what other people say about it, actually look through the issues people have raised. Some of it applies to proprietary software as well, find out what other people say about the software. You don’t need to do everything yourself, but you do have to take responsibility for trying to make sure it will work as you hope it will.
Whoosh
I can see how you got there, but I’m actually not saying you need to understand any programming languages at all. If the code is out there, and the product is worthwhile, the community can and will vet it.
Like I responded to the other guy, you put a level of trust in anything you use. You can pay for a product and expect polish and support, or you can go the open source route, the DIY hobbyist route, and expect to have to do more yourself. You might have to do research on a product before you trust it. This isn’t a radical concept to me. If I was putting together an RC car, I would do research on the motor to make sure it was unlikely to fail catastrophically.
This. I swear, some people in the FOSS community seem to be convinced everyone who uses a computer is a developer.
Right? And it seems like no one is interested in understanding my point, most only seem interested in defending developers of FOSS. I understand there is no legal obligation from FOSS devs… That is irrelevant.
I love FOSS. It’s one of the best products of humanity. I am not attacking devs at all…
My point was only that while devs don’t owe anyone anything legally, if the rare edge case happens where their code is destructive by accident, it would be a dick move to ignore complaints about it. I guess because it didn’t spell it all out like this, I “deserved” all the downvotes (on since-deleted comments) and condescending remarks?
Yes I know that if I use Firefox I can’t sue them if somehow they wipe my OS. Yes I know that would probably never happen, it’s extremely unlikely to happen. But if it did, FF owes us at least a response. And I means owes in the sense that it’s the right thing to do, not “if you don’t do it I can sue you”.
No. It’s provided without warranty nor guarantee that it’ll work or even leave your system intact. That’s the core of most opensource licenses. Dev owes nobody nothing.
I didn’t say anyone owed anyone anything. I was saying one level of frustration was understandable, one was not. Anyhow, my case happened twenty years ago when creative commons barely existed.
Then you’re right. The frustration would be understandable, the expression thereof towards the developer, not.
what’s with the link in every comment? just curious
It’s a non-commercial copyleft licence for the comment in case the case against Microsoft’s CoPilot is won.
I don’t quite understand, why would Microsoft sue you for a lemmy comment?
Just to be sure, is this a serious question or a troll?
Would it be OK if I will be that guy when ranting about NVIDIA Linux drives? Asking for a friend 😉
Oh yeah fuck NVIDIA. All my homies hate NVIDIA.
All mine hate capitalism. Though, I think we’re saying the same thing. ;)
YOU 👏 ARE 👏 NOT 👏 OWED 👏 CUSTOMER 👏 SERVICE 👏 FOR 👏 USING 👏 THIS 👏 SOFTWARE 👏
YOU 👏 ARE 👏 NOT 👏 OWED 👏 A 👏 WARRANTY 👏
Don’t like it? Pay for your software :)
Don’t like it? Pay for your software :)
Most people happily will. So the year of the Linux desktop will always be n+1
The nightmare just crawls out to our reality when paid software is less developed on and more buggy than free Open Source software.
That’s because the people making it are doing it for a job rather than for the love of it. (Except me. Surely I don’t do that.)
I see this in the comments section of Skyrim mods and it pisses me off so much
Worse, I see this with Fediverse platforms like Lemmy. During the initial Reddit influx so many people expected the exact level of polish and user experience as Reddit and there were tons of threads (on Lemmy itself) basically complaining how much Lemmy “sucks” compared to Reddit, despite them coming over to Lemmy because Reddit was being enshitified. Same with Mastodon when the Twitter people were coming over.
I mean to be fair it’s still terrible. Better than the early days and in my opinion better than using Reddit which is why I’m here. But basic functionality is just awful. Trying to discover new content outside of your particular instances incredibly tedious. So many large instances won’t stop trigger happy Banning practically every other goddamn instance out there which isn’t helping. The whole thing that originally made Reddit popular was that it was an easy place to go to find almost any topic of Interest but I now have to hunt through many different instances to potentially find what I’m looking for on top of that the community for any one particular interest could easily be scattered across multiple different instances that don’t Federate with each other and if I subscribe to all of them I’m going to likely be subjected to a lot of repeating posts
I fully understand why a lot of people were not on board with that I put up with it because I hate Reddit more than I hate that but a lot of people will not share that opinion
Keep in mind though that Lemmy is very much still in open beta while Reddit has been a mature product for years now. Lemmy only started federating like two years ago, and even compared to other Fediverse platforms Lemmy is still very new. Most of the “must have” features people associate with Reddit took a while to materialize as well, in fact when Reddit launched it didn’t have subreddits or even nested comments on posts. Not saying your grievances are invalid, but give it time and things will improve as Lemmy gets more development.
IIRC it always had threaded comments but yes subreddits took years. Shamefully I was very much in the anti subreddit camp and argued fiercely for tags instead like Flickr (RIP)
Lemmy with Sync is pretty baller though not sure what everyone is complaining about.
Don’t be that second guy, use Nix.
I agree with OP, but the whole confrontation could’ve been avoided in the first place if all dependencies were spelled out to the letter in the form of a flake.nix with the latest accompanying flake.lock file.
I swear Nix users are the mormons of the Linux world.
Yes, but one of our promises is real… Just a real pain in the ass sometimes.
Guilty. But substitute Mormonism with the proper way to do things.
It’s a frontend JavaScript UI library. I can’t control what other dependencies people install alongside my library, or even whether they follow my library’s dependency list.
Are you sure about that?
Upvoted in Nix solidarity. One day they’ll understand.
I think it’s funny. We are the new “I use Arch, BTW” and I’m happy to embrace it.
I just hate having to re-configure all my stuff whenever I set up a new box 🤷
Agreed. That and I hate Docker with a burning passion.
As someone who is out of the loop a lot, what is it about Docker that you hate? What do you use instead?
It took me weeks to wrap my head around it, but now I enjoy being able to spin something up without too much work. At work we have the whole CICD thing with Docker and K8, but I am pretty far removed from what they have to do in the run files.
What other kinds of workflows do people use these days?
Nix flakes are all I need to completely replace Docker.
I don’t mean any ill will toward the guy. He’s frustrated and he’s just taking it out in the wrong venue at the wrong people, but that doesn’t mean he’s a bad person.
But he is a bad person. He’s being a fucking idiot and being insulting to the person who made the software for him in the first place.
People like that don’t deserve patience and understanding. Perhaps a good response would be “this software is free for you to use, if you don’t like it then fuck off and make your own”.
But he is a bad person.
People like that don’t deserve patience and understanding.
These black and white statements won’t do you or anyone else any good. We understand that an inconsiderate or rude act doesn’t define a person when we can believe that about ourselves and love ourselves despite our many mistakes and cringe-worthy incidents.
When we love ourselves we begin to offer others the same grace and understanding we allow ourselves. We see the myriad reasons we don’t think or act how we’d like to and realize that everyone else’s life is just as difficult and confusing, and often for reasons we’ll never see or understand.
